Celenia

[Lalina]

On another note.

I know that these gods and their spell lists were determined by much effort and hardwork.  However, I have some questions and possible changes -- as someone who has played a Hopebringer for a bit.

Current Spells that do not make sense:
Currently, Hopebringers are allowed to cast the reverse of Goodberry which is Badberry.  Badberry creates poisonous berries that hurt people.  I don't think that needs more explanation.  Goodberry makes sense and should be kept though.

Further, Hopebringers are also allowed to cast the spell Rainbow .  Rainbow creates a bow of various hues that can then be fired to hurt people.  This once again, does not seem to fit.  The other use for Rainbow is to create a Rainbow bridge.  I see no problem with that.

Confusion:
There seems to be some confusion about Hopebringers well, confusing people.

Hopebringers can cast Detect Charm but are unable to cast the reverse of it, Undetectable Charm which masks all charms.

Hopebringers can cast Know Alignment.  That makes sense (despite the fact that cannot cast Detect Evil for some reason).  They can also cast Undetectable Alignment which obfuscates alignment.

Hopebringers can cast Locate Object as well as the reverse, obscure object -- both do the obvious as given their names.

However, although Hopebringers can cast Tongues, they cannot cast the reverse of it, which confuses verbal communication.

They can also cast both True Seeing and False Seeing as well as Find the Path and Lose the Path.

Seems Celenia is a bit confused as to when she wants to confuse people.  In three cases, they can cast a spell that helps understanding but cannot cast the reverse.  In four cases, they can both help and hinder understanding.

To my mind, we should make our minds up either way and stick with it.  The only exception to the general rule (either way) may be Tongues.  I cannot not really see any situation where a Hopebringer would want to confuse verbal communication -- since that tends to bring about bad feelings like frustration and anger.   Lose the Path also makes little sense to me -- why would a Hopebringer (and why would Celenia grant them the power to) ever make someone feel completely lost and without hope?

Indeed, I lean towards elimination all of the reversables -- no undetectable alignment , no obscure object , no false seeing and no lose the path .

Now, so far I have talked about what should be taken away, now I'd like to suggest what spells could be used to replace the spells taken away.  These are just suggestions.

Detect Evil-- Celenia is, afterall, supposedly the Purest Good goddess.  While I understand that she often sees good/evil in a different light then others, I still think this spell would fit fine for Hopebringers.

Free Action -- Celenia, as a goddess, is one who travels the realms of all the deities freely, bringing peace, healing and succor to all.  It would make sense that she would grant this power to her SPs -- the ability to be free from any binding, so that her followers, like herself, can go anywhere and bring healing and succor.  Keep in mind that Free Action is a Sphere: Charm spell, one of the major spheres of Celenia.  So, regular clerics of Celenia can cast it; I see no reason why it should it could not be given to SPs to help balance the spell loss listed above.

Forbiddance -- This makes sense, indeed, I would be surprised if temples, hospitals and other buildings devoted to Celenia would not be protected by this.  It is protective in nature and essentially protects places from being penetrated by sudden attacks by extra-dimensional forces.  It is also Sphere: Protection, one of the major spheres of Celenia.  So regular clerics of Celenia can cast it; I see no reason why it should it could not be given to SPs to help balance the spell loss listed above.

(Keep in mind that Free Action and Forbiddance are the only "Abjuration" spells not on the Hopebringer's spelllist, except for two spells that do damage (fire trap and glyph of warding.

Quest -- This is also a spell that makes sense for Hopebringers.  Indeed, I see the clergy of Celenia requesting specific quests for their greater boons, instead of money.  This spell is also Sphere: Charm, one of the major spheres of Celenia.  So regular clerics of Celenia can cast it; I see no reason why it should it could not be given to SPs to help balance the spell loss listed above.

Another option is to add an entirely new spell.  A unique cure spell could be added at level 2 or 3 with little disruption (other SPs have unique spells directly relating to the deity's PPI).  I even have a custom spell or two that the Magic Committee has already approved that could be a nice addition.

[DarkRayden]

well, as Celenia's nature really seems not to be inclined to chaos or order, but mostly to the good, it does make sense that her SPs would be able to cast the confusing spells as much as their reversed variants. Lose the Path can be a great tool in a Celenite's hands to offer some protection to others and self vs stalking danger or directly aimed hostility. Same goes to other reversed effects. I'd suggest keeping the reversability of certain spells as an aspect of Celenia's ability to maintain neutrality, yet it can always be inclined toward the alignment the Celenite selected.

BadBerry indeed seems out of place for Celenia .

For a unique healing spell seems a great idea as well. 3rd level spells already have some curative magic , but one unique can be added to the 2nd lvl list. Instead of one least appropriate - Trip maybe. It would make sense that a Celenite would be able to cast healing magic at any spell level .

[kluu]

Continue to work it out and then send or post th efinished list, if no one has a problem with it I'll impiment it on the page.

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

Being a daughter of Ostran doesn't mean Celenia has any greater call to Neutrality than she does to Chaos.

Especially since she opposes her father in some aspects of healing. To Diadria, whose in the Neutral Pantheon, one doesn't heal the dying.  

But to Celenia, she heals the dying, she's for the preservation of life and existence. Which in itself is an affront to the natural order in some instances. She's interferring with the natural process in order to push her beliefs in the continuance of life.  Hence, the explanation of her involvement in Chaos, rather than Neutrality.

I'm sure there are several small things which indicate she has some passion towards Neutrality as well, but most individuals don't exist in a box and people behave across the entire spectrum of alignment, but it's the predominant behavior that classifies their final location.

Switching Celenia to the Ostran Pantheon, screws things up. It misbalances the gods in terms of power in the pantheons and in terms of general disposition towards Good/Evil.   I'm still not sure why the change took place on the website, so we'll have to see where it occurred and why to really understand that aspect.