Ballog

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[DarkRayden]

umm....ok

I've been waiting till kluu posted the given info on Ballog, as he said he would. The things that should stay how they are now, and the stuff that should be reworked... It seems that no-one touched this god for at least half year...

I found the next info:
http://home.att.net/~navelorn/Ballog-Lord_of_Chaos.html
http://www.geocities.com/thardferr/archive/index.html

plus + the info from Thard com that is in game now...

I'd like to start working on the SPs for Ballog, so I'll need the given info, that shouldnt be changed, as a constant basis to lean on...

[kluu]

A whol elot can change. The write Up I jsut uploaded to my work site includes most of it but alot of that can change as well. Her is the hard things I think should not be changed.

Ballog (Lord of Chaos)
Chaotic Evil Most High Power

PPI: Nihilism  
SPI: Chaos, Entropy, Isanity
Areas: Demons, Destruction and Turmoil

Ballog has clerics, SP and an ant-paladin variant (I have called them Villians. See write upon my work site.)

Ballog is seen as masculine or a great devouring Beast, he is one of the most evilof gods

His familu relations are considered as follows:

From Ballog springs forth Syth and the twins Sembral and Ajoetis.
Aqualie through union with Ostran, brings forth Kaldinsky and Elanar.
Diadria and Syth are said to have married and give birth to Garalax and Maldread.
The Maldread and Ajoetis union brings forth Jandor.
Jandor's rape of Tyre brings forth Praxin.

He initially appeared in creation as a single particle of chaos that destroyed anything it touched.

HE is one of he gods of Death, destruction, barbarity, evil, chaos, orcs and one of the greater representatives of balance, the negative or chaotic side.
 
Specialty Priests (Chaoslord)
  Races Allowed: Goblins, Halflings, Humans and Orcs.
Requirements: Str 9, Int 11, Wis 14

Has ~5 granted powers
Has maximum 43 spells including no more than three specia or unique spells not found inthe PHB.

Most of the rest is mainly my first write up and ideas. Feel free to use it, shape it add and take away, just let me know so if somethig varies widely I can tell h\you why I ahd it the way I did.

[DarkRayden]

ok, great!! thanks, kluu.

I only need the link to that page you're working on...
I now have too many links saved in 'favorites' and not a clue where to begin from..

[DarkRayden]

strike the last one...
I found this:
http://home.att.net/~navelorn/Ballog-Lord_of_Chaos.html

I'll dance from there, but it seems as nearly complete already

[kluu]

Yaeh, I have been trying tio write them up as complete as posible but if while reading through it you find some contradiction, grammar problems, mistakes or are jsut inspired and have more to add, send it to me. If ther is any blank spaces tryand fill them in. Usually they are blank because 1) Iam jsut stuck and cna't think of anything or 2) I ranout of time and didn't get to it. So feel free to change whatI have written and add to it.

After attempting to write up 27 gods, I have gotten a little continuity between them but also they beginto kinda run in to each other and so I am not sure what I may have left out or already written for someone else. As I look at one to see how I dealt with it during the writing of another I am constantlyfinding mistakes or rethinking things and changing it. A new perspective on even one god would be nice.

[DarkRayden]

one another thing; I've been surfing the web and came across a site that had a large amount of info on the gods of Kyranath:
it included the how-all-began, who-created-who, major-vs-lesser-powers, and all the rest of intro stuff and other details...
I couldnt find it afterwards, but I'd like to look at that site again - does any one have the link?
thanks.

[DarkRayden]

I've looked thru the spheres for clerics of Ballog and the spells list of Chaoslords - it seems that the last have quite limited use of magic (let the special powers aside). Kluu said that Ballogians can have not more than only 43 available spells - for what reason? how is the # of spells decided?

if this is determined by the 'fighting ability' of the priest, then it should be correct toward Sembral, whose SPs are the lords of battle.
Chaoslords, however, IMHO- shouldnt be rated as the high percentage of the fighting class, but a bit lower. I'd say about 50-60% fighters... It's also true that they bring chaos and destruction into the world and need to have the qualities of warriors, yet greater demolition can be achieved thru magic as well, and thus be granted more access to the other destructive powers such magic.
Not only this, but even the requesites for Chaoslords are based on their Wisdom as a primery factor and only a minor value of 9 address to STR, which technically, along with DEX and CON (not even mentioned there), represent the fighting ability per say...  
by the PHB, each spell level up to 4th, has about 25-30 # of spells - MOST of those have to be available for any class played, for it be merely for the survival purpose of the PC. choosing only 7-8 most useful spells out of total is kind of unlikely. I'd say at least 10 spells for each spell-level, up to the 3rd should be available to any SP... if anything should be limited at all- it is more reasonable to substruct from the higher levels, as 6th & 7th, which are likely not used at all, due to the high ability score requirements and the PCs' level played/achieved.

Another thing, for now:
the Code of 'unmaking' - it is not allowed for the Chaoslords to build any structure for any reason.
How should we then address the building of shelters from heavy storms (a small cover of branches or using their own equipment), just to keep the PC alive? does the rule of 'survive, just to be able to bring more destruction later' apply here?
what about making traps/setting snares?? or casting such spells??
is 'fire building' prof. not allowed for them as well?? or is it only limited to forbid the making of the fireplace only, but litting a torch is relevant??

I've write more about NWPs later, also will bring some suggestions for the list of spells. A few other points too...later.[/i]

[DarkRayden]

a few more points I'd like to refer to:

*Ballogian orders - what ever happened to the Black Fist Order??? Is it no longer within Thardferr??

*Clerics of Ballog -
Major spheres: All, Charm, Combat, Elemental, Necromantic, Summoning, Weather, Protection
Minor spheres: Sun (Reversed) , Guardian, Healing

of all major spheres, Ballog's followers should mostly rely on the wild and destructive forces as Combat, Elemental, Necro, Summoning and Weather, while
the minor spheres are choosed for the reason of limiting the access to powers that somewhat contradict Chaos' nature - as healing, light and Guardian, which is somewhat based on lawful part of the world.

*Chaoslords:

I reckon there should be a referrance on SPs handling the undead, as it is with the present Chaoslords.

The Chaoslord cannot learn any skill or use any aspect of a skill that deals with the construction, or making of anything, though they may still pray for new spells to aid them in their performance of Ballog's will.

philosophically speaking, even the use of magic and divination of all forms is based on rules, thus on order of things, which opposes Chaos... So are all the prof. that deal with learning/training... I guess Engeneering is out of qestion for Chaoslords, but how about the others, like Reading/writing or Herbalism (is it not allowed to brew potons as well??)) ? In other words - It can be said that EVERY proficiency has its part of creation/making or just based on those rules, so no  
chaotic profs exist at all, so what would be the EXCEPTIONS for the SPs of Ballog??

*Alignment - CE, CN and, I see no reason that a NE PC cant become a Chaoslord

*Weapons - I'd go with more of 'offensive' types of weapons. Literally, weapons that deal a greater damage or just heavy sort that is designed for brutality or mutilation , like Bastardsword, Long/Broad sword, polearms, TRIDENT... just cant imagine a Chaoslord with mancatcher or a kitchen knife

*NWP/WP: proposed bonus WP is Trident or Quarterstaff + the default Religion NWP
Required NWP - survival (just a thought)


it also would be nice to have a ceremonial sacrifice now and then... nothing fancy, maybe once per 2-3 months, just to let the priest going

[kluu]

ok let me wee if I can answer or define my reasoning on all of these.

Ihave heard there is another god page soemwhere, I think created byNyr when the god com was first started, but I have never seen it. I have extrapolated the riles to the rewrite based onwhathas been posted on the god's com site. Theonly site I know is one that archives the previous boards before those were made and I used those in my research. thought msot was prettyuseless as the later discussions changed them a great deal or made them unusable.

THe spells is based on potential fighting ability, and with any wepaon or armor allowed and no limitationonstr con or dex,they can be as good as any cleric without any aid in compbat through fighting can be.THis sets thmat the high end of combat skil land so less spells. THis is a balancing factor used throughout the god write ups.

Ikinda jsut threw the code of unmakig out there, it can be changed, or even removed. Any suggestions. Ido't want to make alist of all the NWP that can and can't be learned, soem common sense andpracticallity should be used indetermining these,a hard core Ballog worshi[per may not make that lean to to shelter formthe storm, while others would saythey are not creating anything jsut using what is laying around and the structure isn't going to last beyond this night and the destr5uctionof it inthe morning wil lonly increase their god. There is levels to everything even in the rules given. Besides what is more chaotic than breaking the rules of your chaotic god.

I never heard of th Black Fist, send me a descriptoin of them and I'l add them. There is a bunch of cults and clans alligned to Ballog but I do't want to try and name them all. I should mentionorc clans though in there.

I have no problem with your spheres except protection and healing, Ballog would not want to protect or heal anything these are the opposite of what he represents. reverse healing perhaps. but upper level protection not at all.

I always consider the SP to have the same as the cleric unless mentioned differently, and so since clerics can control undead and the CHaoslord doesn't reference it at allthey also can control undead.

I agree that inthe religion of Balog there has to be some order, thisis becasue in allthings there is both chaos and order, Ballog jsut wants his worshippers to use as little as posible to spread his true goal, the destruction of all.  

NE is now added.

since any wepon is allowed, then there is no need to limit or have certian weapons be used by th CHaos lord, theyare free to use whatebver they like. and I don't see survivalat all fitting for a god of Nihilism, if anything theyshould be reckless and not care, if they get in a place they cna't survive without their own abilities, then it is their time to die. Iwouldn't give it freeas it doens't represent the needs of the SP. There isn't really anything other then knowing religion that they must know to be a choaslord.

Idont have any specific ceremony or ritual sacrifice as this is too orderly. THe followers of Ballog should be casueing destruction and kiling people all the time inhis name.

[DarkRayden]

noted.
adjusting:

Clerics -
then add the Guardian sphere to the minor too, to ballance it a bit.
Guardian forces are lawful, thus it is reasonable to limit those for some degree.
Healing...hmm... then you'll have clerics who cant even CLW themselves, but if Chaos decides its time to go for them, then it shall be so

Control undead - I take that it stayed unchanged as in Ballog's page on the website... http://www.thardferr.com/add/online/god/ballog.html

the order of Black Fist is taken from http://www.thardferr.com/add/online/god/ballog.html

Affiliated Orders: There is only one associated order that follows Ballog, the order of the black fist. The ranks of the black fist consist of many warriors, with the paladins of Ballog leading them.

I dont know anything about it... except I think I heard Sage was the one to bring those in, but have no clue whether they are still part of Thardferr.

WP/NWP -
I think getting a bonus prof. upon reaching 4th level , in the induction ritual. When they granted the tri-staff, the Chaoslords are aslo get the training for quarterstaff or trident ((as bonus WP))
If they have the Ancient Language prof - then the language would be Ancient Goblin, as for Corcarin Hacor (-archaic goblin, loosely translates to 'Codex of Unweaving'), so they can be related to it in their future...

the 'forbidden' NWPs can be Engeneering and Healing (disabilities). The rest of the profs can be decided by the player himself and his motivation.

I like the Code of Unmaking, especially the last point

You also have a mistype(?) there, where it is said about the Magical item. in first referrance you noted 25% and further you have only 20% of rejection... what is the right percentage?

Spell list:
I'm gonna suggest having -
1st lev - 12 spells
2nd - 11 spells
3rd - 8 spells
4th - 7 spells
5th - 5 spells
6th - 4 spells
7th - 3 or 4 spells

think of it - the clerics are only limited for the spheres they use. They have 3 times more spells, but dont have the special powers. Now, clerics have the same fighting abilities as the Chaoslords, when there are only two special abilities that increase Chaoslords' fighting skills.
In total clerics have over a 100 availaible spells (of all levels), while Chaoslords stay with only 40.... Thus I suggested to add a few more (9)spells, to ballance up this issue a bit. making it 50 spells in total.

[DarkRayden]

another suggestion - to add Praxin as Ballog's (minor) ally, for his chaotic aproach toward shapes and sorts of forms, also for the beastiality and monsters he represents:

He is what goes wrong and causes alterations to the natural order and cycle of nature. Disrupting the normal flow and introducing permutations that bring fear and loathing to most people...

may be refered as if invoking the demons or just being 'responsible' for changing nature's order....


I'd like to add another 'special ceremony' in referrance to the magical research of the Priest:
Chaoslords may pray for new spells only/once they committed a massive atrocity/destruction, whithin the same place the massacre happened. The newly granted spell will be considered as a gift from the Lord of Madness to those that aided and promoted the way of Chaos and the deed was attributed to them, for all knowledge.

after the Chaoslord has performed a major massacre or atrocity that has been attributed to him,

No need of shrine or temple, for

Shrines are places marked by great detraction and loss of life. Continued use of these places for sacrifice is not the goal of Ballog and so when a sacrifice is needed, a new atrocity must be planned and executed in order to bring the Lord of Destruction's attention to the worshippers

These moments would be the best for granting the worshipers new power (if they ask for it - spell research) and will symbolize their dedication to Ballog's goals and therefore worthy of his aid...

also I offer my spell list, that I based on Ballog's general dogma and the powers of the allies he works with, and whose powers he relies on; Most of those will be taken from the main spheres of the allied gods and his own perspective of Chaotic and Destructive nature, thus - Necromantic (Diadra), Combat (Sembral) Weather (Corathal) Elemental (Fyrre, mostly), plus sorts of spells that deal with metamorph (shape change, alteration), charming ('destroying' one's will) and the like as summoning (close to the sphere of Demons)...

1st
Curse (!), Command (!), Cause Light Wounds (!), Prot. from Good, *Putrefy drink/food, Darkness (!), Entangle (!), Pass without trace, Magical stone (?), Endure cold/heat, *Destroy water (!), Shillelagh (?), Detect Good (?)
2nd
Chant (?), Enthrall, Dust Devil, Fire trap, Heat metal, Warp wood (!), Flame Blade (?), Badberry (!), Hold person, Resist Cold/fire (?), Silence, Wyvern Watch, Trip, Charm Person (!)
3rd
Animate dead (!), Call lightning (!), *Cause Blindness/Deafness (!), *Cause Disease (!), Dispel magic (?), Pyrotechnix, Plant growth (?), Spike growth, *Bestow curse (!), Summon Insects, Tree (?)
4th
Animal summoning (?), Control Temp. (?),  *Cause serious wounds, Giant insects (!) , *Poison (!), *Prot from good 10yds, Destroy fire (!), Hallucinatory forest (?)
5th
*Rock to mud, *Cause critical wounds, *Slay living, Insect plague, *Dispel Good (?) , Flame strike (!)

6th and 7th can stay the same, for nothing more can be added

Plus, the new spells added to Chaoslords - Random casualty, Chaotic command, Entropy shield...

* - reversible only
reversible
(!) - IMHO - essential for the Chaoslord and his nature
(?) - not sure if it is needde, or even represents Caoslords

I know this is a 'huge' list, so those marked as (?) can be removed, tho about the others - I think they only answer for the power the Chaoslord represents and serving as tools to achieving his main goals.

Let me know if/what you find unfit here and what will the final spell list look like. Also would like some answers for the previously asked questions/suggestions...

[kluu]

the sp can still control undead.

I don't see why thye should gain a fre WP. The ability is to add flame sword to a special weapon not learn to use a weapon, they have to use the WP they gain at 4th level for that.

Replaced creatoin disability with
 The Chaoslord can never learn the following nonweapon proficiencies: Agriculture, Armorer, Artistic Ability - Anything dealing with creation, Blacksmithing, Carpentry, Engineering, Forgery, Healing, Herbalism, Leatherworking, Pottery, Seamstress/Tailor,  Stonemasonry, Weaponsmithing or Weaving.

It is 20%  -fixed.

Spells: This isn't really negotiable, al the gods are using the same standard. The balancing is betweenthe SP not the SP and the cleric, clerics are allpretty muchthe same depending onthe power of their god and not balanced with the power of the SP.  I'll look over you list and see if I overlooked something but the number willstill be around 38 spells maximum.

Praxin, perhaps? but I have thought of alot of ways tohave manygods sort of allies or sort of enemies and only tried to include those that had some special link one wayor the other. Idont' believe that Praxin is a destroyer and so is mainly only connected with his secondary aspect of chaos. Iamnot sure this is enough to overcome the whole thing of Praxin being a creator and nature god which is against Ballog completely.
I think you are forgetting that Gallog is the god of Nihilsm not choas, chaos is secondary to this.

I ddin't really like many of your added spells as they dealt too much with plants which are living things that Ballog shouldn't have control of at all.  I added destroy water as that one is one I missed. Also he shouldn't base what spells he gets because of his allies, if he needs their spells he gets an ally to come and cast them.

I don't beleive a special ceremony should be described as a menas of gaining spells. Spell research already says youhave to build an alter or use one to have any chance to get the new spell. So since Ballog only has a n alter made throgh atrtocity or destruction then this is how they would have to do it. I think we onlyneed give enough to let the DM and player RP this and don't need to have the religion have a special ceremony deling with the creation of new spells, Just because Ballog still allows new spells to be made through his followers I think it is agasint his nature to make it a ritual of the church. THis seems kinda strang eto me to have the god of nihilism have a specia  ritual allowing the creatoin of something.

It may seem I am shooting down alot of what you are suggesting, perhaps I am. but I do appreciate the help as each suggestions make me think about why I have what I do and some of it is being added because of your efforts as wellas making me add a bit to clarify tings you have pointed out.

[DarkRayden]

Yeah, indeed, it rather seems that you are shooting down alot of suggestions But as long as it has its reasons - no probs here

I don't see why they should gain a free WP. The ability is to add flame sword to a special weapon not learn to use a weapon, they have to use the WP they gain at 4th level for that.

I see where I made it sound as a bonus WP , but I never meant it as such. Simply misread the Induction ritual part. However I wanted to clarify - if I choose a Trident prof instead of Quarterstaff, will it still be valid in reference to use the Tri-staff??
Another question - If the PC wears a strapped (small) shield , will he be able to use this weapon??? granted the hand is not holding a thing?


It still says 25% next to Magcal Item , under Chaoslord section:

Magic Items: Any with a 25% chance of rejection

The Chaoslord can never learn the following nonweapon proficiencies: Agriculture, Armorer, Artistic Ability - Anything dealing with creation, Blacksmithing, Carpentry, Engineering, Forgery, Healing, Herbalism, Leatherworking, Pottery, Seamstress/Tailor, Stonemasonry, Weaponsmithing or Weaving

Seems fair, tho Herbalism wouldnt hurt to brew poisons, as an exception. but thats an afterthought

I think you are forgetting that Gallog is the god of Nihilsm not choas, chaos is secondary to this.

I guess I do, but if we take the purely nihilistic aproach to things - then we can forget about lots of things already written on this God. Rituals, orders, hierarchy, magic ,allies, ANY prof, in other words anything based on order of things and structures of some kind, nothing will describe Ballog, and no rule would apply to him. His dogma will just be a theory with no way to really achieve it, bcoz of the contradictions it may evoke when trying to do so thru normal means in the initial creation. Thus when it comes to technical details we better address the Chaotic part of this being and find the compromise in 'make minor things to destroy bigger parts' or something like that...
But I agree - Praxin is not that great an ally for him not more than any other chaotic gods that is...

the spells that deal with plants, that I suggested, are only those that make the plants lose their natural form and twick their shape. they deal with distortion of the natural creation and dement the originally meant purpose or their beauty, turning it into something else, more 'detestable' ...thus defying the creation.((i.e. warp wood can cause a small structure to collapse, when the built shape is distorted, or spike growth makes a beautiful part of forest into a horrible trap that kills its prey - kinda mocking the gods of nature))
Illusions may also fit for Ballog's spells , for their resemblense to hallucinations and delusions that oftenly met within forms of madness and insanity. they play with minds and twick the perception of the reality, to some degree opposing the influence of the Foe Gods, thru mischief and treachery... That is also the reason I didnt choose many divinatory spells (augury and such) for this god - they tell of what's to come, when Ballog seeks to BRING a future of his own , initiating, not accepting. As I already said- there are no pure Chaotic/Nihilistic spells that would fit Ballog - and we can always find this or that to claim contradiction to his beliefs...

I have no problems with the minimal number of spells, as long as the minimum makes sense, but it really seems TOO LITTLE to choose from. Imagine a 12th level priest (Wis 14, +1 bonus spell -- 7 spells of 1st lev in total) 'recycling' all of his known spells with nothing more he can cast from that level... I thought the discussion on gods.com agreed on 50 or so spells - and that is OUT OF ~170 SPELLS offered by the PHB.... now, 38 ((tho you said 43 before)) is something below 25% of possible magic ability, which is VERY low, even tho their fighting abilities are not limited.
You can always set rating for the fighting ability and make it, lets say, appr. 140 spells vs LOW ability, around 100 vs MEDIUM and anywhere 50-60 spells vs HIGH ability (which is around 40%)... you'll have 'steps' of 30 spells for each ability class, without even reaching the tops...
I gave something about 50 spells in my list, as it was discussed before,
and am really sorry this isnt open even for negotiation
I would   kill and destroy for couple more spells, as I assume any chaoslord would    
Oh, you also mentioned 'bestow curse' twice in the list...

These are the last things I still feel uneasy with, in the new write-up for Ballog. I promise:)

[kluu]

- if I choose a Trident prof instead of Quarterstaff, will it still be valid in reference to use the Tri-staff??

yes should I make this clearer. Either of them would allow you to use the newly created weapon. thoughin character I suppose the trident user would thrust more and the Qstaff user sing and bash.

Thanks missed a place on the 25% will correct to 20%

I thought about poisons and herbalism, but figured a cleric warrior, such as the Chaos knight would have noproblems using poison but they would jsut get others to make it and not do it themselves. I cna't see a Chaosknight rucking around i nthe wilds looking for lichen and mushrooms and then sitting over a pot breing up something for hours.

Was jsut tring to say that we should take into mind all aspects and not focus on one, which it appeared youhad been doing for much of your suggestions. I tried to include as much madness demons, chaos and destruction with the main ting being the destructoin of tings as a goal when doing the write up.

No rules do apply to Ballog cut this is a write-up of how his religion and people inthe world deal with him. Eventhe greatest follower of Ballog is going to have soem law and good in them, that is jsut the way of creation. Ballog takes what he can get. If he had his actual choice he would jsut raise people up in insanity set them agasint the world and let them do as much random damage as they can until they die or are killed. Btu if he did that he oudl, destroy his power base, his ultimate goal needs living people to manipulate the world into chaos and entropy. Hmm thtais pretty good I shoud clean it up and add it to the page.


your plant spell description sounds like reasons to have praxin be able to sue them not Ballog. Since there is so manygods we have to attempt to not double up anymore than we have to. I tried to keep a separatoin between pure chaos and any kind of distortion or chaotic influence when deciding what spells.

Illusoins are Arnathis and a few other god overlaps. mischief and treachery belong ot elanar and Ajoetis or Maldread. See how youare putting too much in Ballog's basket and so depriving the speciality of these things to their proper god in the pantheons. Remember that Ballog is the head gd of the Pantheon and he has these other lesser gods to handle the particulars of these while he deals eith greater matters. Focussing on too specific would actually lessen Ballog in my thoughts not strengthen him. He whould remain the engine of destruction, the rest are jsut means of getting there madness demons chaos, etc...

the average was 50 or so for allgods, the stronger gods comat wise only got 25 + or - and the weak comabat ones got 75 +\-. Ballog is combat strong and so has lesser spells. I have used the 25, 50 75, as average and +/- 5 percent, so max would be 25 + 13 or 38 spells for combat strong. We also allow upto three unique spells which Ballog has included for a max of 41. The 43 was a miscalculatoni on my part.
I have this typed out on the template page linked tothe bottom of my work site. Changing now would mean having to redo every god, every spel list inluding changing those already accepted. I don't want to stretch this out anothe year having everyone submit and discuss spell lists all over again. We have to set soemthing in stone if we wnat to get anything done. tis is one of them. I think I even went over 41 spells to 43. but bestow curse will be dropped and make it closer. I have no problem fudging by one or two at most for really important spells.

Opps must have moved bestow curse to alphabetical placement and forgot to delete the old one.