The Gods for 3E. Work thread and discussion.

[kluu]

It woud be great if we don't have to mess with prestige format for the SP.

I think they need to meet the requirements of the SP class. I assume the ability scores will translate over as no score is higher than a 14, I don't thnk but what of the NWP reqs and bonuses. These need to be given. It should be stated the PC need a level of X in whatever skill, and gain a +X in whatever skill. Also, won't the special granted powers need to be converted into 3e mechanics in many places?

If any that have a good understanding of the 3e game mechnics and the gods of Thardferr could run through them and give suggested rewrite of those powers that need it and suggest the req skills that are most similar to the ones mentioned, I'd like to add to each god write up the specific 3e changes or informatoin so they can be easily used. Or is this still too complicated or not needed? Let me know.

I figure that most of it works fine but with a minimal amount of amendment and explaination we can decide what is needed update the write ups fairly quickly.

First of all each god needs to have three domains? Does every cleric have a need for this and it would then carry over to the SP? Please give your suggestions and lets begin discussoin of what else needs to be done.

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

What needs to be done.

Actually, not a whole lot. Define the domains for the various Thardferr Deities and we are DONE. :) Woohooo!!

Ability Score Requirements, etc. doesn't translate across for simplicity. Since, there are no requirements for any class in 3e. You can be anything, simply because you want to be.

Skills, also don't translate across well, since all clerics are limited to a certain subset of skills and the same skill points (class and cross-class skills).

So, basically, to make a priest in 3e, all we need to do is give them a list of deities and the domains those deities offer.  So basically, what you need is someone to go through, look through the areas we already defined as PPI, SPI, etc. and match those to the domains already offered in the 3e PHB.  Now, there are more domains available in other books, etc. but I assume that the 3e version of Thardferr will follow the 2e version.  Stick with the Core Rules, not the supplements.

As for rewriting the gods, don't bother. :)    Just put a little information there for their domains, since 3e for the most part has the same information about deities as 2e.  Beyond how they affect the PC's (domains) they are the same for all intents and purposes.

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

Greater Powers: Terrarie, Ostran, Sembral
Intermediate Powers: Mahacto, Aqualie, Fyrre
Lesser Powers: Telk, Loralis, Elenar

Greater Powers: Creator, Tyre, Aranthis
Intermediate Powers: Anthor, Kaldinsky, Celenia
Lesser Powers: Hesneen, Thr, Aerie

Greater Powers: Syth, Diadria, Ballog
Intermediate Powers: Garalax, Praxin, Corathal
Lesser Powers: Jandor, Ajoetis, Maldread

******************************************************

Options for Domain Listing.

#1) Simple Option.  Assign each deity a set # of domains, so that every priest has the same # to choose from.

#2) Intermediate Option.  Assign each deity a set # of domains, that vary depending upon the power of the deity in question.  Greater Deities = 3 domains, Intermediate = 2, Lesser = 1

I really, really don't want to make it more complex than that. Since then you make it more trouble than it's worth.

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

Oh yeah, and I used the rebalanced Pantheon I proposed a while back, since it doesn't have the problem with misbalanced deities allowing more Greater Good deites and no Greater Neutral deity, etc, etc.   I don't know if it's been fixed or even considered. But at least it's balanced for the proposal I made. :)

[Thragnar]

This is actually rather simple.

All The Thardferr Gods get assigned 3 Domains that fit them best.  Ex: Trickery, Luck, and Chaos for Elenar.  Of the 3, two are chosen at creation as the ones the cleric follows.

For 5 levels the PC develops as a Cleric

All the Priests would need to meet these qualifications:

Requirements:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd level divine spells.
Special: Must be worshipper of XXXXX God
Religion: 5 Ranks

At level 5 Clerics become eligible to become full Priests with some new added powers specific to the priest of choice.  Ex:   Elenar gets new skills assigned as class skills and a different number of skill points per level;  Hand of Chance; Luck;  Plus a +1 boost to caster level when casting spells.    This all follows the guidelines already in place.  Luck is granted at Priest level 1,4,7,etc. / Hand of Chance at Priest level 2,5,8,etc.  Spells get a +1 boost to the level they are cast as but they keep the same progression as they are normally.  Ex:  7th level Priest casts as 8th level.

This can be done fairly easily with all other Priest classes

[Suleidan]

Thragnar's ideas towards SP's is like what I would like to see be done myself...  Specialty Priests are exactly that.  special priests...  It makes sense to me that it would be something attained IC in game.

So much so, that I think the 2e way of doing things should be looked at.

[Endel]

As Thrag has just shown I have already converted the Trickster (SP of Elenar) to the 3e format. I am doing the converting as they are needed. Typically I would aim prestige class to be level 5 attainable. Meaning that when they earn enough XP for level six they can take their first level in the PC (Prestige Class). The Trickster SP is actually not that strong in comparision to to other Prestige classes that are level five attainable. It should be noted that the way I wrote up the Trickster PC, it is made to be attained by a Paladin of Elanar,(If one exists). A paladin ont he other hand wouldn't be able to take a level of Trickster until after his 11th level. Theoretically, if Elanar supported druids, the druid track woudl also work. Basically 3e prestige classes are made to be theroectically attainable by any class or in better terms, you aren't supposed to use class or character levels as requirements. Hence I say 3rd level divine spellcasting ability instead of level five cleric.
To convert the gods to 3e all you have to do is assign domains. THe only way that this would get a little complicated is if we wanted to give more domain options tot he different levels of gods. 2 domains to lessers, 3 to intermediate, and 4 domains to greater but even then that might not be the best option.

[Endel]

Here is the Prestige Class. HTe table might not format correctly.

Trickster:
The trickster is the chosen disiple of Elanar, the goddess of chance. This priest epitomizes the spirit of the goddess herself. The trickster is dedicated to the worthiness of adding chance through mischief to the world. In order to open the minds of others to possibility, these fortunate and gifted priests wander Kyranath seeking to show others the opportunities that are everywhere to be taken. The Tricksters serve by spreading random chance and good or bad fortune for as many others as they can. It is their duty to Elanar to take up each new coarse that is laid before them and do their best to get others to go along and find their own fate along the way.

Requirements:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd level divine spells.
Special: Must be worshipper of Elanar
Religion: 5 Ranks

Class Skills:
Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Pick Pocket (Dex), Professioin (Wis), and Spot (Wis)
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features:
All of the following are features of the trickster prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tricksters gain no proficiency in any weapon or armor. Note that armor check penalties for armor heavier than lether apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble.

Spells per Day: A trickster continues learning divine spells. Thus, when a new trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in the divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controling or rebuking undead and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of trickster to the level of some other divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. For example, if Shishmale, an 8th level cleric of Elanar, gains a level in Trickster, she gains new spells as if she had risen to 9th level in cleric, but uses the other Trickster aspects of level progression such as attack bonus and save bonus. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a Trickster, she must decide which class she adds each level of Trickster for puposes of determining spells per day when she adds the new level. Once chosen this cannot change.

Hand of Chance: A trickster can alter ANY die roll up or down by one point or alter any percentage chance up or down by 5%. This extends to any rolls dealing with circumstances in his presence as well, be it in combat, a save, skill check, spell failure by himself or others. In this sense, a critical fumble can just become a missed attack, a critical attack can just become a hit, a failed save can be made, a surprise roll can be modified, etc... For each four levels of the trickster, they may either the use the above once per day or they can increased the amount the number can be changed by one. Thus at 7th-level, a roll can be changed by up to 2 or 10% once per day or by 1 or 5% twice per day.

Luck: Whenever a completely random roll, not associated with any specific character's actions or skills, made by the DM and typically unknown by the players will influence what happens to the Trickster, the roll is modified by one in favor of the Trickster for each 3 levels of experience.

                            Base
Class Level    Attack Bonus    Fort Save   Ref Save    Will Save     Special     Spells per Day
       1                    +0                    +0             +2                +2             Luck      +1 to existing class
       2                    +1                    +0             +3                +3            H of C     +1 to existing class
       3                    +2                    +1             +3                +3                           +1 to existing class
       4                    +3                    +1             +4                +4             Luck      +1 to existing class
       5                    +3                    +1             +4                +4            H of C     +1 to existing class
       6                    +4                    +2             +5                +5                           +1 to existing class
       7                    +5                    +2             +5                +5             Luck      +1 to existing class
       8                    +5                    +2             +6                +6                           +1 to existing class
       9                    +6                    +3             +6                +6            H of C     +1 to existing class
       10                  +7                    +3             +7                +7             Luck      +1 to existing class

[Trickster]

I'd like to suggest that specialty preists require 8 ranks in Religion instead of 5. The formula for max skill ranks is: Character Level + 3. Cross-Class skills are half that. I'd also like to put forward the idea that there be more than one requirement skill-wise as is the case with most if not all prestige classes.

In a Trickster's case they could have: 8 Ranks in Religion and 4 Ranks in Bluff.

Endel, I believe you've given them far to many skill points a level. Normal clerics have 2 + Int modifier each level. In addition you have gone and forgotten religion and spellcraft as class skills. Also there will need to be more than one list of class skills made up. One for 3rd edition and one for 3.5 edition. Innuendo and Pick Pockets no longer exist.

Might I suggest:

Class Skills (3rd edition):

Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Knowledge <Religion> (Int), Knowledge <The Planes> (Int), Knowledge <Local> (Int) Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Pick Pocket (Dex), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier


Class Skills (3.5 edition):

Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Knowledge <Religion> (Int), Knowledge <The Planes> (Int), Knowledge <Local> (Int) Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier


Just putting forward ideas for discussion.

[kluu]

I'm worried alittle about conversion to 2nd ed. It seems like they may have to be completely reworked if the player doen'st keep inmind that they will need specific ability scores and NWP.

I'm leaning towards not making these requirements but I would strongly stress that each DM sees that the character is similar to or has similar skills and abilities to make it easier to convert on those times it is needed.

I'm all for the Prestige being used for SP, as they are written up and approved, I'll add them tot he pages. We need to only really come up with the domains for each cleric, then.

As Nyr pointed out this could be weighed based on status of the god. Is this normal for 3E. The write ups only barely do this. Between greatest gods and lesser gods using domains there is probably only a difference of one domain.

I would suggest that the greater gods Kreaon, OStran and Ballog have four domains if there is four that fit.

all others except lesser have three and lesser have two domans.

Nyr, I did some tweaking based on the discussion that had been had and though I'm not sure it is exactly as you mentoin above  it is more balanced I believe.  Here is a first draft of possible domains:

The Most High (4 domains)
Kreaon (LG) Creation K - Good, Sun, Protection, Law
Ostran (N) Balance O - Animal, Knowledge, Plant, Travel
Ballog (CE) Nihilism B -  Evil, Chaos, Destruction, Death
   
Greater Powers (3 domains)
Aranthis (CG) Music B - Magic, Good, Trickery
Diadria (NE) Death O - Death, Evil, Magic
Sembral (CN) Battle B - War, Destruction, Strength
Syth (LE) Tyranny K - Magic, Law Destruction
Terrarie (LN) Earth K - Earth, Law, Protection
Tyre (NG) Life O - Animal, Plant, Good, Healing

Intermediate Powers (3 domains)
Anthor (LG) Honor K - Law, Good, War
Celenia (NG) Health O - Healing, Good, Protection
Corathal (NE) Vengeance O - Animal, Destruction, Plant
Elanar (CG) Chance B - Trickery, Chaos, Luck
Fyrre (CE) Fire B - Fire, Choas, Destruction
Garalax (LE) Conspiracy K - Knowledge, Destruction, Evil
Kaldinsky (N) Knowledge O - Knowledge, Magic,  Protection
Loralis (CN) Mystery B - Knowledge, Chaos, Trickery
Mahacto (LN) Law K - Law, War,

Lesser Powers (2 domains)
Aerie (CG) Air B - Air, Travel
Ajoetis (CE) Desire B - Evil, Chaos
Aqualie (N) Water O - Water, Healing
Hesneen (LG) Duty K - Law, War
Jandor (LE) Torment K - Evil, Destruction
Maldread (NE) Deceit K - Trickery, Evil
Praxin (CN) Aberration O - Animal, Choas
Telk (LN) Invention K - Law, Luck
Thr (NG) Guardianship O - Good, Protection

[Trickster]

Just to poke around a bit, I went and messed around with the listed domains that Kluu had. Not going to get anything done without discussion. I notived a bunch of domains where lacking (Strength, Luck in particular).

The Most High (4 domains)
Kreaon (LG) Creation K - Good, Sun, Protection, Law
Ostran (N) Balance O - Animal, Knowledge, Plant, Travel
Ballog (CE) Nihilism B - Evil, Chaos, Destruction, Death

Greater Powers (3 domains)
Aranthis (CG) Music B - Magic, Luck, Trickery
Diadria (NE) Death O - Death, Evil, Magic
Sembral (CN) Battle B - War, Destruction, Strength
Syth (LE) Tyranny K - Magic, Law, Destruction
Terrarie (LN) Earth K - Earth, Law, Protection
Tyre (NG) Life O - Animal, Plant, Healing

Intermediate Powers (3 domains)
Anthor (LG) Honor K - Law, Good, War
Celenia (NG) Health O - Healing, Good, Protection
Corathal (NE) Vengeance O - Animal, Destruction, Plant
Elanar (CG) Chance B - Trickery, Chaos, Luck
Fyrre (CE) Fire B - Fire, Choas, Destruction
Garalax (LE) Conspiracy K - Knowledge, Destruction, Evil
Kaldinsky (N) Knowledge O - Knowledge, Magic, Protection
Loralis (CN) Mystery B - Knowledge, Chaos, Trickery
Mahacto (LN) Law K - Law, Strength, Sun

Lesser Powers (2 domains)
Aerie (CG) Air B - Air, Travel
Ajoetis (CE) Desire B - Evil, Chaos
Aqualie (N) Water O - Water, Healing
Hesneen (LG) Duty K - Strength, Good
Jandor (LE) Torment K - Evil, Destruction
Maldread (NE) Deceit K - Trickery, Evil
Praxin (CN) Aberration O - Animal, Chaos
Telk (LN) Invention K - Knowledge, Luck
Thr (NG) Guardianship O - Good, Protection


We will need to also choose each god's specific weapon. Some ideas are:

Kreaon: Heavy Mace
Ostran: Sickle
Ballog: Trident
Diadra: Scyth
Sembral: War Axe or Great Axe
Syth: Dagger
Anthor: Longsword
Celania: None
Corathal: Unarmed or Club?
Elenar: Dagger
Kaldinsky: Quarterstaff
Loralis: War Pick
Mahacto: Any Sword
Aerie: Longbow
Ajoetis: Whip
Aqualie: Javalin/Harpoon
Hesneen: Warhammer
Jandor: Flail
Praxin: Club
Telk: Gnomish Hammer, Hooked.
Thr: Warhammer

Fill in any gods I left out or add changes of your own.

[Thragnar]

Trickster - The 7th level Priest of Elenar is a conversion from 2e to 3e.   It means he is stuck with skills that no longer really fit a Priest in 3e.  Plus a limitation on the skills available for the 3e cleric class make what you suggest a bit too difficult.   Also please remember we are trying to keep it simple and make it as much like Thardferr for sake of any conversions that need to be made.   I cannot stress enough the need to keep it nice and simple at first.   Do not expect Priests able to spend all these skill points on only 3 skills when trying to convert.   Priests of Elenar do not have any equivalent in 2e for the Bluff skill in 3e.   We are trying to convert Not re-make.  The extra skill points help make up for the great disparity in converting 2e to 3e and don't even come close to maxing out any one skill.

Some suggestions about skills are fine.  But you need to keep them in line with the 2E Trickster.   There is no such thing as Bluff or Concentration available.

The conversion was done with a lot of thought to keeping it true to Thardferr in both version yet still playable with any that might build from scratch.

[Mnuxim]

I concur that we do not need to make it overly hard to attain these prestige classes.  Other Thardferr prestige classes (which we need not detail at this moment) such as Orcish Shadow Warrior might have more stringent requirements.  I agree to having the determining factor for the ability to become an SP be the ability to cast 3rd level divine spells.

I agree with keeping the number of ranks required to 5 and in only one skill, religion. (Although I could see arguments for some SPs to have a different skill)

We also need to make a rule that SPs may not be multi-classed as anything besides cleric / SPs unless the involved character is human.  This is simply because we do not allow multi-class SPs to 2e characters.

I would like to see being an SP be almost identical to being a cleric, excluding in areas which are different based on the kind of SP it is.  For example, an SP of Kaldinsky might have more skill points to distribute.

I might be wrong on this, as I have not read through the SP descriptions before posting these musings, but do Tricksters receive thief skills of one manner or another, even at very modest levels?  If so than that would be the argument for allowing them more skill points per level, so that they might garner that benefit.

Here is an issue which we have not discussed, which might be worth discussion.  What happens in the case of a character who is say 3rd level and an SP of Praxin (for example)?  They have clear IC abilities of shape shifting at this point as I recall, however in 3e they would not be eligable for the SP Prestige class yet.  Would we force them to progress in cleric levels until they had 5 levels of cleric before continuing as a SP?  This likely will never come up, as we have discussed before there is not a whole lot of need for conversion constantly, and SPs are a relatively rare breed regardless.  Just trying to throw more wood on the fire I suppose.

[Thragnar]

Yes, Nux,   2E Priests of elenar recieve the following thief abilities on a limited level:   Pick Pockets / Move Silently / Hide in Shadows.

As far as your question about priests devoted to Praxin, I would say no.    They like any Priests in 3E wait until level 5 to gain benefits.   Priests of Elenar get the Hand of Chance and Luck abilities at level one in 2E    So if they wait ... you see what I mean?

[Suleidan]

They have clear IC abilities of shape shifting at this point as I recall, however in 3e they would not be eligable for the SP Prestige class yet.

This is where I think the 2e SPs should be changed... so that special abilities of SPs do not kick in until lvl 5.  (( and that is 'start kicking in' ))