What now?

[Dalan]

With the resignation of three council members (so far) in one day, where do we go from here?

Do we have direct voting on issues?

Do we go back to the original days where the DM body (or even just one admin) ruled?

Do we stay the same and start electing new TC Player Reps?

This whole situation saddens me, and all I can say is, its no ones fault but ourselves.

[Gibreel]

If I was to vote.....


I would say the DMs get 100% of the IC control and give a single ADMIN 100% of the OOC control to pass things that the TC would have (2/3rds vote to overrule this person by PCs or 100% of the DMC).

........Or.........

Throw out all this OOC waste of time and energy. Have the DMC finish what current subjects they wish this week then shut-down all the OOC changes and just play.

[Dalan]

Tonight at 8pm Eastern I'll be in OpenRPG, willing to discuss this with anyone who wishes to.  Until then I'll be working.  Hopefully I won't be the last one on the TC on my first day being on the TC.


BTW folks I'm the new DM alternate on the TC

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

Well, according to our own rules, we elect new members and alternates.  

The remaining members are Liriel & Myself.   We need to elect 2 more members and 2 more alternates.  

The TC is a thankless job, it's always been that way and it's going to stay that way. There is no way to make everyone happy, there never will be a way to make everyone happy. However, there is such a thing as compromise and pushing for the betterment of Thardferr.

Sorry to see people go that could have brought some new blood to the table, but if they were disgusted at how things are played out they should have taken a hard look at the TC archives and the past. It's not a popularity contest, it's a job.  It's a volunteer job to help sort through mountains of information, politics and what not, usually to scrape out a few things each term.  However, that doesn't mean we don't want to change it from that and make it something better, but like all things, it needs involvement and time to evolve into a better format.

*****************

"You have your way. I have my way.  As for the right way, the correct way and the only way, it does not exist"  - Nietzsche

[Dalan]

I like your quote Nyr, and agree with it completely.

I honestly don't know what to do, but what I do know is that I don't think we should do anything reactionary.  Some things I think need to take very much time, but on this issue, I think we all need to let a week or so pass and then decide.  This doesn't mean I don't think we shouldn't discuss anything, but I don't like the idea of us having a kneejerk reaction.

I am sort of leaning towards wanting the DM body to have the control if the Players seem to want it, at least until we have more players and groups playing.  Really what we have right now is Four or Five groups playing, with four or five DMs.  I dont think we NEED a lot of organization.

I would propose still having Sule as the Admin and having the DM body make decisions with a 2/3 Thardferr vote overturnining those decisions.

Perhaps with eight active groups (or some other number) we could return to having a TC.

One more thing, I've said before if a DM or TC member leaves, its no one's fault but their own (unless they are actually FORCED out).  I still hold that view.  They all had a choice to leave or not, and they made their own decision.

That doesn't mean however, there isn't anything wrong in the TC or Thardferr.

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

I'd think the TC would be more important in a lull when we have fewer DM's. Not because the TC has any power to force the DM's to do anything, but so that the few remaining DM's can concentrate on more important matters and leave the TC to handle day to day matters regarding rule implementations, etc.

[Dalan]

Except that every active DM right now is on the TC, except Nikhir, who just returned, and Cleo, who lost internet.

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

The DM's have always controlled 60% of the TC's voting power so in effect, it's still the DM's who decide the issues in Thardferr.  The other 40% is just people doing legwork, trying to find solutions, plowing through proposals and basically doing the time consuming stuff that a DM is keen to avoid due to their own committments to their own campaigns.

Doesn't seem like anything changes in that respect. :)

[kluu]

Though it seems the bureacracy of being on a council is what turned off some people, perhaps if the questions of how we want the TC to do things is settled it will at least make it easier on any future TC who then never have to deal with it again.

Until this TC it was always figured out int he first two weeks of the new mebers coming in how they wanted to handle things, votes, discussions, etc...
I am not sure why it was different this time, be it gibs rush to want to bring on needed change, or my trying to get some organizatoin to things or others ignoring it, but the TC never came to a decisoin on how they wanted to do business.

With the lull, perhaps this cna be decided and made part of al lTC to come so it never need be decided again.

I'm not even gonna propose how this should be but some simple rules should be decided, even if it is the official meeting rules most of the wrold use shaped to fit this forum and for the boards.

If those are written out so everyone knowns them it should suffice.

[Gibreel]

Most people left simply because they figured out that what you propose with a simple set of rules "written out so everyone knowns them it should suffice" actually is what held them caught in place for two months--even though rules already exist they were argued and will continue to be argued because not everyone will agree. That and a few people who would do anything to make it difficult for anyone except themselves to be in charge.

[Dalan]

I'm sure each person had their own reasons to leave.

I don't know about the other DMs, but I'd say myself (as long as I've been on it) and Kluu probably spend just as much time and work as the PCs on the council, and Feff is probably right up there as well.

But feel free to say that the TC doesn't need fixing or that whats going on now is fine.  I'm not sure that there is anything wrong.  I'm just not sure.

I do have a feeling that more would be accomplished with the DMs running the show rather than the TC or a Thardferr wide vote.  I don't know if that would be best for Thardferr though.

I made this thread to come up with ideas, solutions, and/or opinions.

Right now though, the TC is still in effect, though minus three of its PC members.

[Gibreel]

Most people posted their reasopns. Like everything as of late, it seems opinions are split down the middle, and that they are totally opposite in most cases. Perhaps it is run-ff from feeling about election Politics--or maybe it is just the American way--I don't know.

Right now it seems half the people think the buroeacracy is getting in the way, while the other half think that each rule passed streamlines the system. One side thinks things have been active, while the other half thinks most of those proposals rewrite already existing rules or are silly like voting if we want to welcome new players.

My thoughts fits those posted elsewhere by someone on the outside looking in "Not that I partake of too much of the Thardferr OOC realm, I must remark, that when I look over the TC proposals of late I find them to be confusing and somewhat redunant. In fact I believe I can empathise with the resigning members upon their frustration, since some of the material I've seen pass these august boards seems trivial and almost intentionally so."

But Forget who is right..... I just know when both side are so oppossed half will be angry all the time. Better we have one person in charge since that is the case.

[kluu]

Discussing some overall rules of order for the TC didn't stop any discussions or implimentation of other changes as we did it.

I'm not sure why people thought that becasue I and maybe a few others wanted some regular rules of doing things thta it stopped them from doing anything else. It obveiously didn't as we have more discussions proposals and votes going on now than ever before in my memory.

If people wuit because I was wanting to set some rules then I dont understand it. Every TC had this discussion in the first couple weks to decide how they wanted to deal with the organixatoin of their tenior in the tC. That is what the getting established time was for in the election and turn over times.

It jsut seemed to me this TC wnated to impliment soemthig more overall for all future TC as tey proposed and passed a rule saying that the next TC cna't overturn their decision without a thard wide vote. This made it so that the next TC would have to use whatever this TC decicded.

I don't see it as a level of buraecracy but s I had said many times a guideline to order things but using common sense, to allow things to be done in a more organized manner.

The lack of organization or a basis of making changes is what causes most problems. Without some order,the tC could pass things never seen by the public, do it too wuickly to be noticed or reviewed by the few DMs now active, cause a need of posissible multiple clarifications and amendments, etc... A little bit of organization and time to look things over just didn't' seem to be asking that much of people to me.

I dont' see my wanting these rules as the reason of the tC failing, if anything it was the discourse between some members, the public and others in the TC that got or was percieved as toopersonally targeted.

As I believe Liriel and I in tha past have siad, I have thick skin, this sort of thing doens't bother me and so I maynot notice whenit is bothering others. BUt I don't see how discussing implimenting rules to follow in making changes or additions caused anything else not to be done or discussed as well.

[kluu]

BTW, who is the one person in charge? I'd like to get him to get off his ass and sort this crap out.

[Gibreel]

Like I said above, we just see the reality of things totally different. You see"It obveiously didn't as we have more discussions proposals and votes going on now than ever before in my memory." I see that under this system the TC only passed: Thardferr Council Alternate Rules, and Demihumans Going Above Racial Level Limits--one rule that already existed and another that already existed in a different form. And that most of the remaining discussions were wasteful, and sometimes silly like who votes for what and should we welcome new players. All of which did not survive long enough to pass as the entire TC quit.

You see to few rules for things to work, I think it is the rules causing the problems along with the fact that they are ignored.