Paladin/Ranger specialtys

[Saphire]

Aerie or Celenia defintely don't need paladins, but their rangers could be worked out as well.

[DarkRayden]

yep

sorry to flood the boards too much with my input, but kinda thought that besides their SP each God should have no more that ONE additional class (any playable) of followers .
Otherwise we'll need to add more classes to each deity if one is outbalanced - i.e it just wouldnt be fair to those that did not choose to follow that deity and thus have a small range of options to choose from.

[Trickster]

Just to list the abilities that could be lost for reference:

- Lay on Hands
- Special Mount
- Turn Undead
- Cure Disease
- Protection from Evil 10ft
- Spell Use
- +2 to all Saving Throws

[DarkRayden]

whose abilities are those, Trickster? I gather it is the general Paladin's ability list?

I think Turn Undead, prot. from Evil, Spell use and the saving throws are not to be dropped as it all what makes the paladin in first place. Seems reasonable for every paladin to ave those.

Now, cure disease is something specifical to a type of a deity, thus can be replaced depending on the god the paladin follows.
Pretty much as the rest on that list...
hmmm...special mount tho... right - it does is required for all paladins, so maybe some can drop it as well.

[Zee]

*Steps up to the soapbox* I disagree with the Rangers of celenia being worked out. As far as rangers actually go that is one of the only gods written up that leaves a rangers tracking ability alone (not changing it to mountaineering or navigation or what have you). As some one who is playing a ranger that is coming close to receiving spells i found it quite the shock that not only were tharderrian ranger's spell lists altered but half of them or more cant even track. I know that the gods have been used to make thardferr more unique - but by taking rangers and paladin classes (who get the shaft in alot of ways in this system anyway especially with the stat buy outs) we start turning them into classes that have 'kits'. I personally feel that they kind of need to be altered only minorly and given a thardferrian flare and feel- certainly not turning a mahactoian paladin into a blademaster. Those are just my thoughts though. While we're on it - does anyone else think the blademaster needs some work? Should there be a new thread for Blademaster discussion? All i know i played one for awhile and well straight up fighters can actually be better than blademasters with a given weapon. Im done now though .

[Lalina]

I only suggested that I see Aerie and Celenia has having a kind of "holy warrior" but neither are really that nature-like.  But then, Aerie is an elemental goddess and Celenia is the preserver of life and nature -- so maybe they have ties to nature.  Maybe I have just been thinking about all of this too hard.  :?:

Well, there are 4 paladin deities, 4 villian deities, 4 druid deities.

There are 8 ranger deities, but 4 of them are kind of "different" (one is focused on water, 2 are focused on mountains -- and then celenia and aerie rangers are kind of a different bird, despite both having tracking as well).

But Tyre and Corathal (the two closest to "nature" deities in Thardferr) have standard rangers;  Ostran's spell list is only adjusted slightly.

Anyway.  This might be as simple as merely fleshing out some things about these classes.  The most paladins or rangers get on the write-up page is 3 sentences.

[Jelani]

Now I realize people want things as "fleshed out" as possible, but there are counterpoints to look at here.  By focusing so much on the religious aspect of things, we are effectively creating kits for these classes.  To do the same thing for the fighter/mage/thief classes would take a lot of work and, I am guessing, will never be done.  Is it then any wonder that the religious-type PCs are the most popular, most played, and longest lived as a result?

I am not arguing against fleshing things out further, but just pointing out that, as we do so, we taking away individual creativity and replacing it with a uniform set of rules and skills.  It has also tipped Thardferr into a world filled with lots of religious types and not a lot of "mundane" PC classes.

[Zee]

I agree with you jel - the only problem is that the rangers (i know of atleast) have already been 'tweaked' to fit into thard and there isnt much detail on them - which is only hurtful to those wanting to play them.

[Lalina]

I agree, to a certain extent.  Giving paladins/rangers unique powers was just an idea and a suggestion and I am of two minds about it.

As for religious things being "more fleshed out," I don't know about that.  There is some pretty extensive fleshing out of mages -- legal vs illegal, numerous guilds, etc. along with complex magic laws.  For fighters and thieves in the OotS, things are really fleshed out, right down to uniforms.

Also, it just may be that religious types need more fleshing out.  Clergy, paladins, rangers, etc. all have to follow the dictates of the deity and usually the church as well.  Priests, paladins and rangers who don't follow their deity's code lose benefits and can even lose their class entirely.  Because it has to be more fleshed out than other classes (nothing you can do can "stop" you from being a fighter or a mage), it just tends to be even moreso.

Does that limit player creativity? Probably.  But with 27 deities, hopefully players are not limited too much.  Further, even two priests of the same deity can have very different interpretations of the deity (they were written vague enough for that) and so be very different.  Lawful dieties may have less room for difference than chaotic ones, but I would imagine the differences in interpretation of lawful deities would be front and center-stage of that particular faith (Caretaker VS Darkbringer, case in point) whereas the differences in a chaotic deity don't matter too much (sure, there are different 'ways' to Aerie, but the clergy does not care too much where you fall).

Perhaps that is a good example. "Fleshing something out" means that you provide a structure -- and that structure should never limit player's creativity, just provide a framework the creativity has to operate in.  So, for example, fleshing out how a particular Church operates, what dress its clergy typically wear, etc. should not limit creativity.  Players should always be encouraged to take a particular idea, faith, theology, etc. and tweak it -- priests can always disagree with the mainline church or be part of a cult, etc.  However, you can't have those relations in the theology, ideas, dress code, etc. of the mainline church are not detailed.

I would think similar things exist for other classes.  IMG tattoo might be a good example or the Order uniform, etc.

[Saphire]

I agree with you jel - the only problem is that the rangers (i know of atleast) have already been 'tweaked' to fit into thard and there isnt much detail on them - which is only hurtful to those wanting to play them.

 That's my feeling as well, I myself have been interested in playing a ranger, but there isn't enough info on them, the same with the paladins.

 Basically, I just think we need more detailed information on the classes, that should really go for all, but figured to start with what I'm most, currently  familiar with.
  We don't need to make them completely into kits, but with the different gods, they should differ from each other. Taking from my past games offline, one thing I always enjoyed was how each religious class was tailored to the gods they worshipped. Paladins of vengence gods had different abilitys and profiencys, then the ones of healing etc.

[kluu]

Paladins of Hesneen (The Douzepers)

    The paladins of Hesneen, Douzapers, gain endurance as a bonus non weapon proficiency. They are the most dutiful and loyal of all of the special servants of the god and uphold Hesneen's  Duties to his worshippers and enforce them amongst society. Their main objective is the capture and rightious punishment of the betrayer and oathbreaker.  The douzeper does not gain  the ability to cure disease nor is he immune to all disease, he also does not have the ability to turn undead but instead may remove curse once per week but only if it is not a rightious curse. They are immune to all curses though will not be able to use any cursed items. Also the douzeper gains the ability to detect lie (as the spell) once per day.


Rivermen (Rangers) of Aqualie
    This sub-class of warrior is identical to Rangers except for these basic changes: the Riverman is an expert traveler of the waterways of Kyranath. They receive swimming and navigation as free skills as well as tracking. All increase with levels identical to the normal increase in tracking the Ranger receives. Rivermen are generally even more reclusive than other ranger types. Some, once finding their niche in a certain river will never leave it, instead traveling it, living upon it (many times actually in their boats) and protecting the wilds that border it for the rest of their lives. Rivermen rarely enter any fortified city but are known to do it in emergencies. Some willsettle in a small river community and act as their protector but will still live on the river and spend much of their time traveling the waters near their home. They are generally friendly to those they encounter on their river and will spend lengthy times trading stories and bonding with other rivermen they encounter. There may be many rivermen on the same river though they divide it in to territories and only at times of great need stay and work in the same territory after it has been assigned to another. It is extremely rare to find a riverman for any length of time farther than a days trek from the river of their assignation. Though called rivermen, they are also coastal watchers and many live and work the shores of the seas and oceans of Kyranath, though never sail out of sight of shore. Also upon reaching 8th-level they gain spells that differ from those normally learned by Rangers. See Appendix 2b.


Mountainmen (Rangers) of Thr

    This sub-class of warrior is identical to Rangers except for these basic changes: the Mountainmen are expert survivors within the rough terrain of Kyranath instead of the forest. They receive mountaineering as a free skill in place of tracking. It increases with levels identical to the normal increase in tracking the Ranger receives. They may still learn tracking and like other rangers have no modifier to its use. some Mountainmen never leave the mountains in which they were born and found their calling to Thr. It is extremely uncommon for a mountainman to enter any walled city though they do enter smaller unfortified mountain communities and will sometimes even settle down in them and act as their protector. Also upon reaching 8th-level they gain spells that differ from those normally learned by Rangers. See Appendix 2b.


Hospitalar Knights (Rangers) of Celenia
 
Requirement:    Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Wis 13, Cha 9
Prime Requisites:    Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom

    The Rangers of Celenia or hospitalar knights are the only semi organized,  militant side of the church. They believe in peace and love as much as any of Celenia's followers, but they realize that others may never be able to see the way of Celenia and so take up arms to preserve peace and protect those that will not protect themselves. Whenever possible they will use trickery and subterfuge to head off open conflict with others.  Trapping and relocation or driving off predators whenever possible, the Hopitalars are still fully capable of defending through the use of force those that are unable to defend themselves. These knights of the forests and wilderness are generally found closer to larger areas of population and are more likely to spend time within the city's confines than other rangers. Also unlike other ranger orders, the hospitalar knights will travel and work together freely and for as long as is needed.
    In most every other way they are like the nomral ranger, but they have different spells available to them at 8th-level. See Appendix 2b.


Haven't uploaded these but have themon the gods page.  Will thnk on the other paladins as we continue. Anthor Istillthink should be the standard PB paladin. I like theidea of Kreaon having a number of differnt tyes based on their dedicaton tot he god.

[kluu]

I got a bug in my head to wrok on paladins, does anyone have any ideas?

I'l psot my thoughts as I come up with them.

Soem questions.

Should they all have to be LG?

I was thinking maybe Kreaon could be NG and Mahacto be LN, to show one more wanting to help the greter csociety while the other is more to enforce the law.

I'm gonn read the paladin book and get ideas. I think Anthor should be the standard paladin.

[Lalina]

I think of Kreaon as the most-high diety of Lawfulness and Goodness, I have trouble seeing his paladins as not being LG.

I think a paladin, as essentially a very devout and zealot follower, should be forced to have the same exact alignment as the diety itself.  That would mean Mahacto paladins would be LN.  Perhaps a NG or CG god could have non-LG paladins -- in general, we've done that, just make them rangers instead.  I could see the hospitalar knights of celenia as CG and/or NG paladins or Aerie paladins as CG paladins.

[Trickster]

IMO:

Anthor and Kreaon: LG

Mahacto: LN

Hesneen: NG