Temple of the Holy Tankard

[Thragnar]

Yes, your eyes are not deceiving you.   After a few requests during the last few weeks I have decided to bring back the Thardferr Famous home of the place where anyone who feels like it may enter and speak their piece about whatever they have on their mind.   The basic rules of the Temple are that you must stay in the guidelines that have already been set by the Admin. of these boards.   Otherwise you may commant about whatever you feel like.

oh yeah one other thing, ....... No Spam ... I don't like that stuff anyway.  8)

[Dalan]

Muahahahaha.  For those of you who weren't here or don't remembe, this was the untimate rant thread.  It was the greatest thread in Thardferr history, and I'm glad to finally see it back.  Rant away all.

[Thragnar]

What we need here .... are a few more DMs.  

Sheesh!    I've never seen such a dirth of the illusive beings.   Interested applicants may apply in other locations on this board.   Must possess a minimum ability to type and a maximum ability to organize and put up with stuff.  8)

Seriously, Where are they hiding?

[Dalan]

New users: Feb: 12 March: 15 APRIL: 5 May: 16

I think this is one of the MAJOR problems.

[DMGralbor]

We have only received T H R E E new DM applicants in the last 6 months and only one, DM Cleobourne, bothered to respond to the emails sent back out.

We are trying to gather more DMs, as I am even trying to get some of the former PnP DMs that I knew into Thardferr.  If you know of someone that would make a good DM, and is willing to read up and work with others, please have them send an email to thardferrdm@hotmail.com with the subject line indicating as such.

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

But the most important question is, Why Become a Thardferr DM?

Think about it, seriously folks. There is a shortage of people who are long-term DM's or even Player's. Most people who enter this hobby (70%) only play a few years and then vanish. The remaining 30% are scattered across the web far and wide, each frequently with their own campaign settings, ideas for games, house rules, etc. What incentive could make them want to come to Thardferr and deal with the rules, etc. for DM's?

#1) Can't be a PC.
#2) Huge Backlog of Unorganized Information
#3) Approval for Campaigns
#4) Silly Test
#5) Politics
#6) etc, etc, etc.

There's a glut of players out there looking for games. The reason Thardferr isn't growing is because we can't meet the demand of those players for games. Not enough DM's to fill in those various slots to bring more people into Thardferr. Not to mention, that the majority of demand at the moment is for 3e games, not 2e. It's just a fact that if Thardferr stays 2e, we are going to see a steadily declining fan base through the years as 3e becomes all that new gamers are introduced to.

Thardferr itself shows the strain of exactly why we aren't generating new DM's. Each new DM that shows up wants to explore new ideas, push the boundaries and are often told they can't do that.  So they invariably push for new continents, new guilds, new organizations, new political treaties, etc.  to allow them a large measure of control over that application so they can feel more at ease with the setting.

The major problem is that Guidelines, Boundaries, Information, etc. isn't organized and presented in a manner that makes it easy to get involved.

[Nebultuant]

But about 3e how does Thardferr make that a simple transition...I myself do not know 3e so it might just be that which makes it seem that it will be complicated but I also know that it will have to, to survive the coming years.  Just asking what would be the easiest way I guess to do that with the current XP for the characters, and future jioning?
Will all the races become anything they can in 3e or will the restrictions for classes still apply?

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

Conversion is really not all that difficult.    You simple freeze the characters at their current level and stats.  Then go back and rebuild them from level 1 to their current level using the 3e stats.   The most profound change will be in converting from the NWP system to the Skill System..

Once that's done, to use 3e, Thardferr will have to adapt it's XP formula. At the current 100 xp / hour / level  and using a standard 4 hour session, it shapes into this for a 3e character progression in Thardferr.

1st Level to 2nd Level = 10 hours of play. (2.5 sessions)
2nd level to 3rd level = 10 hours of play (2.5 sessions)
3rd to 4th level = 10 hours of play (2.5 sessions)
4th to 5th level = 10 hours of play (2.5 sessions)

See a pattern here? :)   In 3e, using the Thardferr XP formula, you could advance every few sessions rapidly. Whereas, if you drop the level multiplier, your slow it down so that a PC would only advance to 7th level at the end of a year's RL time playing.

Boy, if we had had that advancement back when I started with Prarok playing 8 to 12 hour sessions, I'd be around 30th level by now. :) LOL

[Xxian]

My 2 cents


A possible reason for the decline of 2e players for 3e players could simply be, that (here in Australia anyway) 2e PHB and DMG are no longer available from game shops.  They have become in their own right, rare.  We even looked for them when we recently visited USA, but again, to no avail.   We finaly found one of each, after much searching, over 6000Kms away (3600 Miles) away from where we live. So we now own a mint condition 2e PHB and DMG - at a price.  Tell me, there is devoted, and there is plain crazy.
 Maybe we are the latter (or we just have nothing better to do with our time in the outback) but who else is going to go to that trouble, when there are a million slots for 3e PC's begging to be filled, without all the 'behind the scenes' pollitics that have marred (or scarred) this game recently.  And as it was pointed out by Nyrhtlyk, the history is scatterd amongst several different sites , and is far to much of a head f to try and make head or tail of it.  

What am I trying to say here?  

a> Maybe it is time to seriously consider merging 3e rules in, or at least some sort of conversion chart, so PC's from either side of the fence can hop straight in?? Probably impossible, just thinkoing aloud here.

b> Organisation of information that should be readily available for prospective DM's and PC's alike, Not just history of events, past and present - but also topographic maps of towns, forrests, etc giving precise ground relief.  (at the moment it seems anyone can 'own' property, or happen across a certain tavern in any town of their choosing - without question.)  Political movement - linages of nobles - seasonal detail - etc etc.    I know this has been said time and time again, but we are talking about the decline of interest for the game, why, start at the top of the page again and read back to here, if you can be bothered doing that, and if you can, congrats, you've got what it takes to seek out the relevant information and be a DM in Thardferr, however, without first addressing any of the above issues,  not the initiative to make any changes to the workings of the world, carving a place in history for your PC's, so your PC's can now sit back and endure another mind numbing un-original not-so-flash game of DnD.  Hack 'n slash anyone??

Got change?

[Thragnar]

Here is a shock ..... I don't mind playing 3.0 or 3.5 D&D.   In fact I'm in 2 different campaigns that are using the 3.5 rules.   Why is this a shock?   Some may remember my strong dislike of Thardferr's attempt to try 3.0.  I had specific reasons for my dislike .... but one of them was not the actual system itself.

3.0 / 3.5 and Thardferr is quite possible.   It would just take some time to sit down and create the conversions.   I still insist the conversions be done Before trying it out in game in Thardferr.

What the heck is going on here?   This thread should have 20 posts already .... sheesh.    8)

[Vitriol Blue]

I love 3.5.  For me it is so much easier to understand.  It also allows for much more creatively designed (on paper) pc's and npc's.

Just sitting down to do the conversion would be a major task.  I think we would also have to not include many of the side texts...because much of it would not be useable in Thardferr.

I do think that a change is warrented...sooner or later.  I hate rules though so don't look at me

[DM Rithas]

I personally would love to see Thardferr go 3e/3.5. This was even brought up by another DM a few months back, at which time I supported. The majority of the DMs felt it was unncessary, and the subject was dropped into obscurity.

If the majority of the player base decided 3e/3.5 was warranted as well, I think that would prompt a strong re-consideration of the topic.

It wouldn't be that hard to switch to 3e. I am the one doing such a conversion for Gathis, and there is very little in the way of mechanics that have to be changed, since the largest body of work is strictly IC information.

[Gibreel]

I am nothing if not terrible about learning new rules. I hate new rules, I hate to many rules, and I have never been in a lasting game of anything besides AD&D 2nd Edition. And "the majority of the player base decided 3e/3.5 was warranted as well" seems unlikely when we have turned away 3rd Edition players for some time.

However even with that fact I can see the need for a change, I saw the need for a change when Couyon tested 3rd Edition and it was shut-down in a nasty arguement where some DMs threatened to quit rather than change. Consider when thinking of new players and DMs that when Couyon playtested 3rd Edition he had about 80% of all new PCs, and while most DMs were searching for players he was running 3-4 groups and sidetreks. While many groups were struggling and Thardferr was at its smallest number of players and DMs Couyon was "overloaded with new pc's wanting to join the campaigns", many who wanted to DM if 3rd Edition was passed. A Couple of DMs wanted to run playgroups but were shut-dwon by those against 3rd Edition--with those Dms half of Thardferr would have been 3rd Edition.

However that is just one arguement of many already made. I have said this a great deal lately, but this subject has already been discussed in Hundreds of posts, and having that discussion again is going to end up being just a waste of breath. This past discussion was slo the nastiest I have seen in Thardferr: DMs and players flaming about 90% of the time on their posts, DMs threatening to quit if the vote went against them, people manipulating a vote through ICQs, People manipulating a vote result.

While I am not trying to shutdown conversation, I wonder the value of rediscussing things already discussed in such a major way. A Vote might be useful to test the water, but consider that we have been turning away 3rd Edition players for quite a while and you have to consider the votes to be made up of those who stood being shouted down. It might be best to simply send this to the TC, have them research the past arguement and then decide.

[Feff]

Seeing this is just a discussion and things can always be taken up in a formal way later, I don't think a vote is necessary right now.

Now on to my thoughts, I for one haven't really ever played or gotten into the 3.0/3.5 eds, and I for one am also terrible at learning new rules. I have been playing 2e for so long that it just comes natural to me, and heck, there are plenty of times that I still forget or have to look up rules or information. But I think that this could be done, if and only if we tried to merge the two systems. Not come up with one hybrid form, but to try and have both 3e and 2e groups running at the same time and in the same world. This really only comes into contest with character creation and group interaction. Once we define a way to handle those two things, while keeping things fair between the systems, I would opt for using both.

[DMGralbor]

*The stocky dwarf stumbles into the temple, slightly drunk and ranting about crappy ass computers that won't boot, once they boot, they shut themselves off, and then when they stop that, they give driver error BSOD's and fail to install the OS*

As for 3E/3.5/3.8/4.2/4.7/5.1/etc. there is always going to be the nasty problem of WotC changing the format, rules, layout, characters, etc. because they are accomodating the (as mentioned by Cethlyn on the Immortality thread) exceptionally short attention span of the up and coming generations.

I have played 2E most of my life.  I've also played the original D&D (not AD&D), plus I've been in several other system out there as well

• Shadowrun - d6
• White Wolf Mage and Werewolf - d10
• Star Wars - d6, d10 and now d20[\list]Yes, we could change the environment of Thardferr's mechanics, we could change the gameplay system, hell we could even integrate the various systems, but there would have to be certain things understood if integrating:

1) 2E and 3E groups would not be able to intermingle
2) 3E would not get all their classes to avoid favoring 3E over 2E classes
3) 3.xE would eventually win out as resources for 2E grow more rare

As for some of the other things mentioned, creating a full working map of towns, cities, demographics, locations of inns and taverns, etc. well that's kind of already being worked on, but unless this were to be a full-time paying job, it won't get done exceptionally fast simply because this is a game not a livelihood.  I hate to say that, but it is the brutal truth.  Now, if someone were immortal, then they would perhaps be able to put the time in since they wouldn't have to worry about eating and such