Characteristic Increase

[Lalina]

It's alright, Robi.

So, what is your thoughts on the actual proposal, Robi?

[Robillard]

I have mixed feelings about the proposal.  And I apologize in advance, I don't have the time right now for an in-depth answer, but I'll elaborate more on my thoughts later.

There are things I like and things I don't.  I think kluu has a great idea as far as handing out these points based on XP gained.  Unless some one examines the math and finds this would be imbalanced in some way (I don't know how thardferr's XP formula would affect whether a multiclass character gets more or less XP than a normal one)

I like most of the benefits.  There doesn't seem to be much wrong (not that any of this is wrong, further disclaimers, etc etc)  with them.  The only argument one could make against them is that they may be unnecessary or take us too far from the core rules.  

My only concern with the benefits is the one giving a cleric a SP's power or a SP another power.  That may unbalance things and lead to some very powerful priests.  Look at the SP of Aerie.  They have four powers available and must choose two.  Any PC who eventually got 3 or 4 would be pretty intimidating.

I also worry about how the system for eliminating flaws could limit DM or player freedoms.  As things are now let's say a PC has a code of honor.  Maybe he doesn't do something because it's a teaching of his church, or something he learned from a mentor.  Suppose he finds some ancient scripture proving his church's doctrine is false, or finds out that his mentor is a sham and everything he was taught was a lie?  If there's some very good IC reason I could see a DM saying ok, you don't need to follow that part of your code anymore.  BUT, if this system goes into play people might be like "Yeah, that's a great reason to change your code, but you don't have enough DPs to do that right now"

Something similar could come up with any of the flaws.  "Yeah, after all that your character has been through over the past months/years he probably would start believing in magic.  Shame you don't have enough DPs eh?"  Those are the type of things I worry about.  By making more rules we may be accidentally giving up some of our freedoms while trying to do the exact opposite.

[Gibreel]

I am not strongly against it, but I can agree with your thoughts upon getting rid of flaws. Better to keep that pure RP perhaps, and have this concentrate upon making characters more indivdual.

[DM Rithas]

Robillard re-iterated the concerns I've been expressing on the private boards for weeks now.


Personally I feel all this sort of thing should be handled through RP based on the DM's judgement (or the DMC's, if they go to far).

What I would prefer to see is a list of IC actions and activities that could be used as a jumping board for a DM to create stories, plots, side sessions, what have you for his PCs to improve their characters.

[Gibreel]

I also I feel all this sort of thing should be handled through RP based on the DM's judgement, however I also have seen the problems one can have when every DM uses different rules. You switch DMs and have to rework your character, changing IC aspects that have existed for you in the past because they judged the other DMs work as faulty. As far as IC reasoning, this would be up to the DM and the player at the time. Any type of training would have an almost infinate number of variables IC. Of course this would not prevent Dms from still having their own judgement within their game, they could still award something without DP points oif they wished. The player would simply take the chance that their next DM would accept them.

[Gibreel]

*Proposal: Character Development and Development Points *

This proposal is to offer a means to further develop a character after creation, beyond the level gains that every individual of he same class receives. Each experience level gained on the ranger/paladin table, the PC may receive one-fourth/one-half/one Development Point (DP) to use to modify his character to show the individual development that has been caused through adventuring and experience. At the time the character would level, his current DM decides based upon Roleplaying activity.

Characters may also forgo experience points to gain development points, further individualizing their characters through extra training. The sacrificing of experience represents extra time spent working on certain skills, and is subtracted from their characters total XP. Cost per point is based upon level.

1st-5th:    5000
6th-8th:    10000
9th-14th:  20000
15th+:     50000


These points can be used to gain some special abilities or bonuses, or to increase the character's ability scores, in order to reflect the individual nature of characters.  IC explanation including/requiring training and time under a teacher, material costs, and DM approval will be needed.
 

*Ability Score Development *

To raise an ability score it cost double the normal points needed in character creation to have started with that stat. No ability score can ever be increased more than once, beyond racial limits, nor can any score be raised above 16. These limitations are in place to highlight the limitations of training, and prevent abuse of the point system.

To increase an ability score of 1 to 5 by one point cost 2 DP.
To increase an ability score of 6 to 11 by one point cost 4 DP.
To increase an ability score of 12 to 16 by one point cost 6 DP.

*Special Ability Development*

Extra Skill Training - [cost 2 DP] One NWP slot or +3 to an already known NWP is gained. All crossover penalties still apply. If you are learning a skill not normally allowed for your class it would cost +2 DP. If a NWP cost two slots it would need 4 DP to purchase. No more than three such NWP may be gained in this way weather it is a new skill or a bonus to an already known skill.

Weapon Proficiency Training - [cost 2 DP] Time spent with a trainer and with the specific weapon is needed. One WP slot is gained.

Weapon Initiative - [cost 2 DP] The initiative roll is decreased by one with a specific weapon. Time spent with a trainer with the same is needed. Maximum of +3 with any specific weapon. This is cumulative with the fast perk.

Spell Initiative – [cost 2 DP] The initiative roll is decreased by one for a specific spell. Maximum adjustment of +3 is allowed with any spell, and the casting time can never be reduced below 1. This is NOT cumulative with the fast perk.

Spell Sculpting – [cost 3 DP] A wizard may alter spells of any single school.  These alterations are minute but add minor effects to the spell.  (Examples:  A Fireball that screams as it flies toward its target.  A Stinking Cloud that forms in the shape of a giant face.  A Flaming Sphere that sings a song as it rolls down a passageway.)  Alterations made to the spells are never major enhancements.  These are normally used to enhance a wizards image or reputation.  Your Dungeon Master has the final say as to the validity of the effect.

Rare Skill Training – [cost 3 DP] One NWP ability is gained from outside the Player’s Handbook. This NWP must be approved by your DM and the DMC, and there must be a realistic source for you to learn this skill. Published skills only.

Special Enemy Combat Experience - [cost 3 DP] Great experience fighting a similar type of creature can allow the character to learn their weaknesses and exploit them. This gives a +1 to hit and to damage against that specific race. (Requires the PC to have fought this creature at least twice, have studied Animal lore, or have some other qualifying skill in order to gain this ability.)

Counterstrike - [cost 3 DP] You have learned how to watch an opponent and find your opening. When an enemy rolls a natural 1-2, you gain a free attack directed at that enemy if you are in melee combat. If successful this strike does only half damage.

Armor Bonus - [cost 3 DP] This gives a +1 to the character's Armor Class using a specific type of armor. This can only be gained once. This ability is only active when the character is alert and ready for an attack. Surprise or rear attacks bypass the effects of this training.

Restful Sleep – [cost 3 DP] The character has mastered breathing and relaxation techniques that allow them to become fully rested in 4 hours. During extremely harrowing condition the character must make a CON check to use this ability.

Save Bonus – [cost 3 DP] The character has mastered defense tactics when dealing with a specific attack. The character receives a +1 bonus to saving throws vs. this attack. This only applies to a single type of attack, not an entire save category. The maximum bonus is +3. (Example: Fireball, A single type of poison, Lightning Bolt, Falling Damage)

Off Hand Training - [cost 4 DP] Partial ambidexterity can be gained that gives a +2 to off set two handed and offhanded weapon use (This can never be used as a bonus). This would be with a specific weapon type only and the character must have at least a 12 Dexterity.

Haggler – [cost 4 DP] The character has become very knowledgeable about commerce and exchange, and may reduce cost of purchases by 10-30% (1d3 rolled). In cases where the DM rules the merchant as specifically challenging, he may force a roll.

Aiming - [cost 4 DP] With more time and patience you can hit more accurately with bow or crossbow attacks. For every full round action you spend aiming you gain +1 to attack on
ranged bow or crossbow attacks to a max of +3. The round following the shot you
receive a minus to damage equal to the bonus to hit you received the previous round.

Leadership – [cost 4 DP] The character has made special efforts in the area of public leadership, and attracts followers equal three levels earlier that normal, as well as at their normal level. Classes that normally would not attract followers can attract followers at level 9.

Hold Spell – [cost 4 DP] A caster may extend the duration of a specific spell by extending the casting time by either 1 combat round, or 1 turn. If the casting time is extended by a turn the duration is increased 50%. If the casting time is increased by one turn, the duration is increased 100%.

Surprise Attack – [cost 4 DP] The character has developed a single sneak attack technique, for example a hidden blade that launches from the handle of their weapon. This attack can be used only once in a battle because of its nature and has a +1 to hit. Characters fighting with two weapons cannot use a surprise attack.

Secret Language – [cost 4 DP] The character has developed a secret language for communicating with others. When this skill is taken the character can teach two others the language, beyond this other must spend a NWP to learn the language. The language is limited in its scope, and not meant for complicated communication.

Sage – [cost 4 DP] The character has devoted themselves to the study of a certain field of knowledge. The character must already possess 3-5 NWP connected with this field. A bonus of +1 is received in these NWP, and the character is considered more of an expert and may uncover knowledge not generally known (as per DM).

Spell Penetration – [cost 4 DP] The caster may increase the potency of a single spell, reducing the saving throw against the spell by 1. If magic resistance is involved, it is reduced by 10%. The maximum effect for this is 2 and 20%.

Battle Veteran [cost 4 DP] Through years of experience you have developed    instincts and gained wisdom in massive battles. By choosing your spots and keeping out of sight you are generally not chosen as a target. This is based upon DM decision.

   Snapping attack– [cost 4 DP] You are capable of making quick, accurate, but  
relatively weak strikes with melee weapons. On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract all melee damage bonuses and add the same number to your melee attack rolls.

Over-Committed Strike [cost 4 DP] Your prowess at striking vital areas is uncanny when you fully commit to an attack. You receive a +2 to attack and +2 to damage when you strike and critically hit on a 18-20, but your Armor Class is reduced to 10 the following round. This cannot be done two rounds in a row.

Quick Parry - [cost 4 DP] You use your lightning-quick strikes for defense instead of attack. If you have extra attacks for any reason, such as due to haste, a weapon of speed, or various other magics, feats or tactics, those can now be used for defense. You must be able to make those attacks as a part of whatever type of action you are performing for the round, and incur all penalties associated with the multiple attacks you are using. For each attack you give up, you may reduce your AC by 2.

Disabling Attack – [cost 6 DP] The character has practiced a single disabling attack with a  specific weapon, and reduced the penalty for the called shot by 3. Disarming, attacking the knee to reduce movement, or attacking the wrist to make an enemy fight off-handed all would be considered disabling attacks.

Spell Mastery – [cost 6 DP] A caster may master a specific spell with the following effects. Casting time is reduced by 1. Spell is cast as if 3 levels higher than the characters current level.

True Devoted – [cost 8 DP] The character, while not a priest or paladin is a truly devoted follower of a religion. The character may lay on hands once a day to heal 1d6 HPs.

Intense Weapon Training – [cost 8 DP] A character gains +2 to hit and +1 to damage in a specific weapon through intense training with that weapon. The character also receives a –2 to hit and –1 to damage with all other weapons, unless an extra WP slot is used for that weapon.

Apprentice – [cost 8 DP] The character, while not am arcane spellbinder has mastered the very basics of magical theory. The character may cast three cantrip effects a day, and may use scrolls as a thief.

[Mnuxim]

I like the proposal that Gibreel has put forward.  I don't have much to say on it right now, I will read through it all mean like and such another time and probably have complain- I mean suggestions then.

[Liriel]

OK.  Here we go *grins*

a) If we're going to use these, I really think they should be awarded purely based on XP, not further subject to the DM's judgement (the 1/4, 1/2, 1 thing).  The DM already awards XP, no reason to further track these things.  (Also, there are already problems with XP equity, apparent from other posts, this would only add another area where inequities could become an issue.)


b) I'm not sure I like the XP thing -- assuming max XP for a 4 hour sessions, here's the number of sessions required to gain one point:

1 - 12.5
2 - 6.25
3 - 4.167
4 - 3.125
5 - 2.5
6 - 4.167
7 - 3.57
8 - 3.125
9 - 5.556
10 - 5
11 - 4.545
12 - 4.167
13 - 3.846
14 - 3.571
15 - 8.333
16 - 7.813
17 - 7.353
18 - 6.944
19 - 6.579
20 - 6.25

there's just too much variation there


c)  The DP cost for "aiming" seems high, and it doesn't seem to be overly useful.  You're giving up 2-3 rounds of attacks to gain one +3 .. that's giving up 5-7 other attacks (assuming 2/1 with a bow) to gain one +3, which you lose the next round.


d)  Hold spell -- I think you meant the first casting time to be 1 round for 50% extension


e) Over-committed -- AC should lose all dex bonuses the next round, but not normal armor bonuses.


*grins*  that's all for now

[Zee]

I liked the idea. I thought the parts about earning a new stat based on XP would allow stats to be raised far too quickly. Instead of basing it on XP perhaps all stats could be gained according to so many actual sessions. Say 10 sessions or so, for most of us, 2.5 months of OOC time. Most actual stat increases i could see being done IC with out the need of a mentor/teacher. Strenght could be done, by players doing push ups and sit ups, constituation by putting their body through extremes (sitting in the cold with little clothing). Intelligence, by contemplating and discussing abstract ideas. So on, and so on. During said 10 sessions or so, all spare time can be considered to be spent doing this.

Also I do not see why stats can't be raised to 17 or higher. Personally, I feel the idea that allowing races to increase a stat to 2 below their maximum of their race would make more sense. Orcs being able to increase their strength to 17, elves dexterity to 17, and so on. That way it would show that those races are truely gifted in the aspect of those attributes.

Few ideas on gibs suggested skills:
Save Bonus: Perhaps instead of a specific spell, saves can be made from a specific school, such as evocation, or priest spells such, as weather.

Aiming: Regular bows fire at 2/1, so possibly forgoing the first shot will give a bonus or 1 or 2 on the second. Dont know about crossbows.

Leadership: Allow those who normally attract followers to get them at level 7 or 8 instead.

Sage: +2 or +3 seems better than +1, considerings cost is four DPs.

Battle Veteran: Allows the player to fire arrows from hiding in their surrounding for one round before being discovered, agian since it costs 4 DP.

Snapping Attack: Allow people players to subtract set amounts of damage from their attack to increase thac0, not bonus damage.

Intense Weapon Training- Just seems a little harsh to impart that large of a penalty for 8 DPs.

Apprentice: Possibly one first level spell one or twice a day.


Anyway, feel free to tear my ideas to shreds, just wanted to toss in my two cents on the matter .

[Jelani]

I think this is an interesting idea.  I am not really sure if I like it yet or not though.

One thing that will need to be considered will be what will happen for the current PCs?  Will they all of a sudden have a bunch of DP's for their use and gain abilities, assuming they have the time and training available (depending on what skill and whatnot)?

[kluu]

THough I agree with what everyone is saying about this sort of thing being a DM decided thing and through game play being allowed and allthat, THer stillneeds to be soem sort of guideline or rules for how the DM should do it, how much should be allwoed and at what time and so forth to keep us all working fromthe same play book. Since this is a new thing and not part of the normal AD&D rules, we have to set up soemething or what gib mentioned will continue to happen, at least having set up this guideline and the DP  of what cna be allowed, a PC can show another DM how they gained it and when and it can be checked out and hopefully allowed without trouble.

comments on gib's rewrite

Most of this is great. Ilike most of the new ideas presented. But ther is a few things I'd suggest.

I believe it should still be one DP per level, based on gaining levels as if a paladin/ranger.

I believe we should allow an ability score to be raised by up to 2 but the second point cost twice as much.  I also think we shoud allow the score to be raised to 17 since a 17 is what is allowed to be able to duel class or become a paladin, both of which may be things a person may want to do later in their carreer. So lets top it out at 17.

Restful sleep should cost 4DP

Haggler should modify price infavor of the person by 0 - 25% (1d6-1). This would not only save money for buying but gain more in selling, but eventhe best hagler sometimes only gets the normal price. Also a wisdom check should be needed if the person they are interacting with has skill as merchant, appraisal etc. a Failure means the haggle goes agasint them by half as much as they normally would roll.  Also a minimum of Cha 12 is needed.

I don't think Aiming works as wirtten. Given the rounds being a minute each, it really doen'st make sense.  Perhaps Gain a +1 to hit per each attack you forgo making and another +1 to hit for each additional weapon speed added to init roll to a max of +3.  THis would mean that those able to make more than one attack in the round can make one attack at +1 and aim by taking more time before making it. Perhaps being attacked while wiating to attack. With the minimum bow wepaon speed of 5 most of the +3 to hit shots will be after everyone else has attacked, but will still be in the same minute round, which to me makes more sense.

Surprise attack should give a +2 to hit and only cost 2DP, since it can only be used once in any combat.

Secret language should only cost 2DP but is taught to one other for each DP spent after this. The DP for other's leanring it can be spent by either the one first inventing, gaining or creating the language or the one learning it.

Sage should have at least three NWP at a 11 check or better. Also a mimimum of Int 12 is needed.

Spell penetration should be -2 to save and -10% MR for 5 DP

Over-committed atack, I'd call it 'all out attack', and make the AC lowered by 6 on the round you do it.

quick parry. This should jsut allow anyone with multiple attacks to use as many as they like to parry by the normal rules, instead of losing their whole round of attacks to do it.

disabling attack should not give bonus to do a clled shot but should allow the claled shot to do as you gave as an example. the normal called sot really doen'st allow this sort of thing so this would be bonus enough.

True devotion should heal half he character's level inHP per day.

I don't like intensive weapon trining. THese are all things that you gain after starting the game so they should not reduce already learned things.
I would add the weapon expert I wrote previously or weapon speciality for non fighters as I wrote it up before.

Apprentice should not be allowed, again this is not somethign a person should be able to learn after character creation, this sounds like a good new Perk to add though.  As would intensive weapon training.

Did you cover all the things Jelani had mentoined befoer a things that could be gained for he magic fields?

[Lalina]

@#$%  I had a nice, long post written out and then it didn't go through.

Oh well.  Let me rewrite/summarize.

The great thing about this proposal is because it has gotten people thinking about how they can further add to their characters, which is great.

I like the idea of this but I think I agree with Rithas/Robillard that quantifying it into 'points' might be a bad idea.  I mean, should a character that undertakes all the IC regimen of exercise and the like, not gain a point of strength simply because they lack the DPs to do it?  Players who don't have "enough DPs" are not going to even consider possible IC actions.  Besides, if IC actions and DM approval are needed anyway, then the whole point thing just seems really redundant.  Gibreel and kluu, you guys have a point, but if it's not mandatory and DM discretion is build into the whole process, I really don't see how this system deals with that issue.  If the system is optional and you do some stuff with a DM who uses it but then switch to a DM who doesn't... there's your problem.

How about the following:

"In Thardferr, players can change the basic aspects of their character (ability scores, flaws, special powers, etc.), through character development and IC actions.  There is no 'standard' or 'set' way of doing these things, as each character is unique.  DMs are strongly encouraged to work with engaged and creative players who wish to undergo such changes.  All proposed changes and their IC actions must be approved by the DMC for game balance.  Once approved, these changes are shared-world wide and all DMs are asked to accept such changes in the PC.  Some examples of changes and their appropiate IC actions are below: (and then a list of some of the things we've been talking about)"

In my experience, DMs have been extremely willing to work with players to expand on their PCs or to work those PCs into their campaign.  I just really don't think a DM is going to reject a player because they improved all their sub-16 scores by 1.  Besides, a pearl of wisdom or something along those lines, would probably be much easier to attain and account for.  And, nothing proposed so far comes anywhere near to what power some PCs have due to magical items.   If the DMC gives approval that it is not unbalancing, I don't see why a DM would reject individuals because they have a variety of the things mentioned above.

Just my thoughts.

[Ranak]

I'm In agreement with Lalina, and Robi on this one.  Don't want to keep beating that drum, but I think any unique development needs to be coming from IC actions.  By unique I mean anything above what is already available as a PC advances in leves.  I think it's difficult to quantify this with DP numbers- though the idea itself is interesting.

I'll just reiterate some reasons why;

- Stats change with age- or at least there is a table for this (changes str, wis, int, dex, con etc).  We don't normally see it because of the 1-1 ratio now, but it does exist, and makes sense based on the characters life as they progress naturally with age.

- PC's gain abilities as they level- you DO gain NWP's, WP's and HP as you level. Some Get AC bonuses as well.  This is Racial in some cases, and class bound in others.

- Various classes gain bonuses and increased powers as they level.  More spells, improved turning, reduced THAC0, More hits per round, better thieving skills etc

- DM's do allow changes to your PC.  I have seen this.  It happens, but it's not at a set level, it happens how you steer your PC, how you RP them, and consistency. I don't believe it happens as frequently as say an above proposed table where it's fixed by level , XP or what have you- but IMO it shoudl not be.  This is overall character development.  If I have a flaw of alcoholism, I don't see how me gaining levels, or experience is suddenly going to change that.  It has to be RP'ed, and talked about with your DM.  This takes time, and commitment to developing your character.

This is my opinion, but if you start looking at doing this, you run the risk of having fairly powerful PC's based on a grid/point system.  One thing you have to look at is NPC's- all of those the DM's have created in the past ie Torin, Armius or whatever that IMG fellows name is ()  etc and all other future NPC's is one more step in their development.  Thats probably quite a large undertaing.

[Zee]

What I think the reason for the point system is to help keep things tracked. The current XP system that is in the PHB makes absolutely no sense what so ever, Druids gaining levels the quickest even though they literally learn the most. Being able to learn how to shape change, speak with natural animals, spells, and the like. While fighters only swing their sword and they progress some of the slowest. I personally like the idea of DP's because it would keep low leveled characters from purchasing an expensive flaw and then working it out of their PC by level 3 or 4. Also it can help keep track of what is actually capable for PCs to do. Say a player plays under a DM and gets their character to level 4, when the DM looses all acess to the internet and can't game any more. The player finds a new DM and says that he/she has worked out a 5 or 6 point flaw. With the DP system, it wouldn't be possible yet because they dont have the points to do so yet. I think the DP system will allow for the least ammount of abuse, with out repressing the player .

[Gibreel]

And this does not hamstring the DMC, or the abilities for DMs to bypass the rules with approval from the DMC (which they are suppose to get anyway on major things). It does streamline what is considered 'minor' changes, so PCs switching groups will be less likely to have to redo half their characters. I know many DMs are worried they will be repressed by these rules, but no one is preventing them from doing anything with this set-up, it is simply a system for PCs to more easily transition many of the minor changes there DMs might make. It also indivdualizes PCs more, which there is a large call for given what systems exist actually in print now.

I realize however this is just the otherside of the drum-banging alrady mentioned from the otherside. I think at this point the sides have basically become fixed in their thoughts. It might be best if Scionist (or someone else if he does not have time) takes the thread here and uses the advise to make a final proposal to be voted upon (I would say by the TC but I am the only person who thinks it is their job) by the DMs.