Characteristic Increase

[Scionist]

Proposal: Character Development and Development Points

This proposal is to offer a means to further develop a character after creation, beyond the level gains that every individual of he same class receives. Each level gained after 1st, the PC receives one Development Point (DP) to use to modify his character to show the individual development that has been caused through adventuring and experience. These points can be used to buy off certain flaws, gain some special abilities or bonuses, or to increase the character's ability scores. In all cases of a change to the character, certain in game and IC explanation including/requiring training and time under a teacher, material costs, and DM approval will be needed.

Ability Score Development

To raise an ability score it cost double the normal points needed in character creation to have started with that stat. No ability score can ever be increased beyond racial limits nor can any score be raised above 18. (In the case of exceptional strength it cannot be raised higher than double starting exceptional strength score or to racial maximum.) In all cases, no more than a +3 (in case of exceptional strength +30%) can ever be gained to any single ability score.

To increase an ability score of 1 to 5 by one point cost 2 DP.
To increase an ability score of 6 to 11 by one point cost 4 DP.
To increase an ability score of 12 to 17 by one point cost 6 DP.
To increase an ability score from 17 to 18 cost 8 DP.

This allows any ability score to be increased by one, except to an 18, at 7th level, however weaker stats (those less than six) can be increased by third level. It is unlikely that in game enough time will have passed to allow for such a change unless there is extraordinary circumstances.

(Exceptional strength can only be increased, and not gained, if the character already has exceptional strength. This would include races that give an exceptional strength to those classes not normally allowed to have one. To increase exceptional strength by 1-10 percentage points (1d10) cost 2 DP. )


Special Ability Development

Development points can also be used to increase certain other areas.

Extra Training - [cost 2 DP] One NWP slot or +3 to an already known NWP is gained. All crossover penalties still apply. If you are learning a skill not normally allowed for your class it would cost +2 DP. If a NWP cost two slots it would need 4 DP to purchase. No more than three such NWP may be gained in this way weather it is a new skill or a bonus to an already known skill.

Poison Immunity - [cost 2 DP] +1 save to a specific poison type (not specific poison, but poison type. I. E. Type A, Type B, etc...) This would take some time and the expense of gaining or buying the poison to be used to work up the immunity. The material cost to gain the immunity is for one Dose of the poison to be used in minute amounts over a long time for each point of Constitution the character has. Possible temporary reduction of Constitution score or Maximum HP could be caused while doing this. Permanent loss could be caused if a system shock roll is missed if working on immunity to any poison that can cause death.
A second poison immunity development of the same type would give a +2, for total +3 to save against that type of poison. This is the maximum allowed for any specific type though other poison immunities for another type can be gained.

Thieving Experience - [cost 5 DP] The PC gains one thief skill of their choice, at base chance of 10% modified by Dex, armor and Racial modifiers if applicable. For each level (or average of one level for multi-class characters) the PC increases by 4% to the chosen skill. Further DP can be spent to increase this. Each 1 DP will add another 4% to a single thief skill. Only under the tutelage of a Thief mentor may the character gain any of their abilities. Level advancement does not begin until the level the skill is gained. May require that the PC use a NWP to focus on each thief skill and the PC must possess at least 12 Dexterity. No more than three such thief skills can be gained and three bonuses of +4% to any one skill.

Toughness - [cost 1 DP] +2 HP (not to exceed possible HP per level) is added to the Hit Die roll once only. This must be spent at the time that a Hit Die for a new level is rolled. No more than three such additions to Hit Points may be gained.

Trained Eye - [cost 5 DP] The character gains a +1 in his favor to his normal ability to find secret or concealed doors and a +1 to any other perceptions checks that a DM may ask him to make. If the character has open locks, detect noise or find traps skill they also gain a +5% to each of those abilities.


Combat Training

Weapon Proficiency slot - [cost 2 DP] Time spent with a trainer and with the specific weapon is needed.

Weapon Initiative - [cost 2 DP] The initiative roll is decreased by one with a specific weapon type. Time spent with a trainer with the same is needed. Maximum of +3 with any specific weapon type.

Weapon specialization in an already known melee weapon can be gained by a single class fighter - [cost 2 DP] Weapon specialization in an already known missile weapon can be gained by a single class fighter - [cost 4 DP] Time spent with a trainer with the same weapon specialization and with the specific weapon is needed. a maximum of three weapons can be specialized in this way.

Weapon specialization in an already known melee weapon can be gained by non single class fighters - [cost 4 DP]
Weapon specialization in an already known missile weapon can be gained by a non single class fighter - [cost 8 DP]
Time spent with a trainer with the same weapon specialization and with the specific weapon is needed. Only one of each of these types is allowed.

Weapon specialization in an already known melee weapon can be gained by any class - [cost 8 DP]
Time spent with a trainer with the same weapon specialization and with the specific weapon is needed. Only allowed once.

Expert weapon specialization - [cost 8 DP] With a specific weapon type with which a single class fighter has already specialized, the specialization bonus of +1 to hit, +2 to damage is replaced with +3 to hit and damage. This can only be gained once.

Defensive Bonus - [cost 8 DP] This gives a +1 to the character's Armor Class. This can only be gained once.

Off Hand Training - [cost 4 DP] Partial ambidexterity can be gained that gives a +2 to off set two handed and offhanded weapon use. This would be with a specific weapon type only and the character must have at least a 12 Dexterity.

Critical Hit Bonus - [cost 6 DP] It can be considered that the PC works solely with one weapon. The crit then is increased by one for that type of weapon, meaning the character will gain a crit on a roll of 19 or 20. If they already have a perk increasing their chance to crit this is increased by one as well. May require that the PC use a WP to focus on the weapon and the PC must possess at least 12 Strength. Only allowed to be gained with a single type of weapon with which the character already has a WP.


Special Enemy Combat Experience - [cost 4 DP] Great experience fighting a similar type of creature can allow the character to learn their weaknesses and exploit them. This gives a +1 to hit and to damage against that specific race. (May require the PC to know the Local History NWP, Animal lore, the language of the target race or some other qualifying skill in order to gain this ability.)

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Flaws

The following is a brief outline of what flaws can be bought off:

Code of Honor - [cost 4-6 DP] A PC can decide to disregard their code due to IC reasons. It will have consequences, like changing alignment.

Crippled Limb - No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP.

Excessive Body Odor - No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP.

Fat / Slim - [cost 2 DP] A PC could deal with eating disorder throughout adventuring career.

Low Critical Hit - [cost 2 DP] A PC that gives up a WP slot per weapon can compensate for the lack of focus with that weapon type only.

Low Perception - [cost 4 DP] No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP.

Magic Disbelief - [cost 4 DP] This could happen in time and after adventuring and encountering mages and priest and a great deal of witnessing the miracles and magic they can obviously wield. Could possibly require a magic user to “enlighten” the disbelieving PC over time (learn the spell craft NWP, be shown the use of magic through time, etc...)

Magic Sensitivity - No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP.

Night-Blindness - No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP.

Panic - [cost 8 DP] This like post traumatic stress disorder can be corrected with treatment. But may require a SP of Celena or other highly trained individuals in dealing with such disorders to treat PC over long period of time.

Ugly - No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP.

Unknown Flaw - No, unless DM engineered then cost double original flaw points gained plus one.

Unlucky - No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP.

Unstable Mental Health - [cost 10 DP] This is similar to that of Panic.

Vision Impairment - No, unless DM engineered then cost 4 DP

[Lalina]

I really like this idea; just my initial impression.  I'll have more specific comments later, but just wanted to give it a thumbs up for now!

[Nyrhtlyk the Dark]

Weapon specialization is and should be the sole area of a single-class fighter. When you start giving it to other classes, etc. it diminishes the importance of the class and limits their usefulness.

A comparative example is giving spells to non-mages at a cost of 5dp per spell, per spell level and they can cast it once per day.

The point there, is that you are taking away something unique to a particular class and devaluing that class.

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there also seems to be a general lack of anything to show the improvement of clerics and/or mages, beyond the NWP's, etc. Mages might start casting spells faster, or increase their own resistance. Whilst priests might gain extra skills at turning, etc.

Looks like a great start for a proposal, just seems to need a bit more flesh to include all classes, races, etc. equally. Either that, or it needs to be trimmed down for just Ability Score and generic, all PC affecting skills like bonus WP's and NWP slots without other benefits attached.

[Lalina]

When I had briefly looked this over earlier, I had either consciously or unconsciously didn't really read the weapon stuff.  I concur, in part, with Nyr, that non-single class fighters ought not be allowed to weapon specialize.  However, there is a current Thardferr perk that gives +1 to attack and damage with a specific weapon and I think that would be fair game to include.

As to Nyr's other concerns, here are a few ideas:

Diety's Blessing (?DP):  A cleric can gain a single granted power of the SP of their own faith.  a SP, taking this Blessing, can design a new granted power in consulation with their DM.

(stole this next idea from a Gathis perk, just want to give credit where credit is do -- no plagirism)
Concentration (4DP): The PC has an excellent ability to concentrate on a single task. It is very mentally taxing to do this, and it can only be preformed once per day. With each use of Concentration you may chose any of the following:
1) +2 to hit with any missile weapon.
2) Maintain the casting/maintaining of a spell when struck by a weapon.
3) +3 to any NWP check.
4) +2 to any INT check or WIS check.
5) +1 to any ability roll.

Superior Spellcasting Ability (6 or 8DP): A spellcaster can take this ability to increase his level by 1, for the purposes of how many spells the caster can memorize and cast per day.

Iron Will (6 or 8DP):  The PC adds his current level to his Wisdom, for the purposes of determining spell immunity.

I'm sure there are others in my head, here was just a few.

[Robillard]

I don't like non-fighters specializing, though I think this would be a great way for multi-classed fighters to specialize.  

On that note, how would this deal with multi-classed characters?  You have to decide if they get a point every time they level a class or if they get a point every time their average level goes up.  You've probably already made a decision and simply forgot to put it in (or I didn't notice it).

I think most arguments against this will be that it may make things too complicated and get us even further away from the core rules than we are.

[Nikhir]

I'm sharing Robi' concerns about things getting too complicated and the risks of the proposal being treated differently from DM to DM.

At the moment I'm inclined to vote 'no' or the very least abstain from voting, because I also see the point in the proposal (Or so I would like to think anyway  :wink: ) But I'm generally an open-minded fellow and don't like to act as the brake to new ideas that might improve the way characters can evolve inside Thardferr.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to see some more of your opinions and input about this proposal (including DM's input) before I make up my final decision on this.

[Condor]

i have and idea i will throw to thardferr you cn bloa it off if you want but and idea for new system stuff and a new dming idea..
for with races such as goblins,orcs,half orcs,hob goblins and many more i guess you can think of...
now i,m not heading over with 3rd ed i dont like the edition myself

but i have mention a few of the races above i was refering to
anyway they have classes cleric=shaman...
bard but minus almost all spells if not any
mage=scribe
fighter say other races have such as rangers and so on well allows different version of fighter classes for these creatures also
thief well for most like orcs..follow more down th path of dwarves..
but goblins may have a bonus here more then most
anyway idea is
Monster PHB allow a group of hobgoblins set out or a group like this
would be different and new fun challanges for DMs and players
Orc Mountain ranger(just and idea)
hobgoblin fighter
ogre mage(they are real wow that just popped outta my head)
Goblin thief
Half orc bard
Hobgoblin shaman

theres a party
now its and idea is all blow it off doesnt matter could spice things up

this idea comes from a dm that whats to join i have tried befor ...but nothing
only players and dms telling me many reasons why it wouldnt work

getting preached to lol is not :lol:  something i can say i look forward to..
not to judge all but preaching in thardferr seems to be well practised

not my style really
i go by
on openrpg
CondorDM
i have alot of my own players and run my own games but i would love to step in and help as i have 6 nights a week to do so
also 6 years exp i work mornings and sleep little joking just sleep is caught up on different days i am free to dm alot other then saturdays i make time to spend with my gf so help me god if i didnt lol
i be not playing rp..games anymore :cry:  :?
but past that i have many players that love my game
and would love to help throw ideas in i have forty or so more writin down but hey cant give all secrets away to a plce i,m not even a part of yet  :wink:

well this is CondorDM(dont mind me my back hurts and lol i guess i,m not a grammer buff but bare with me it doesnt mean your any smarter then i
hope to here back on this wont lose any sleep over it if i dont ..i will be checking to see if my idea gets used and yes this is my way of offing something to you and look for a return again if not oh well thats life and it doesnt stop me from running my games and enjoying as some members know i do i will post some game logs up for others to go view if response is a good one to this)
i hope thardferr a good future anyone who keeps 2ed on the for front got my vote even if i didnt like them lol damm i cant stop going on later i must go befor i pass out on here my time zone gmt-4
nova scotia canada 24 years old
CondorDM

[DMGralbor]

For the record, "DM" Condor is not a recognized Thardferr DM and his application for DM status has not been approved more than once.

[Suleidan]

Condor,  Some of your ideas sound interesting, even though they may not merge with the already established world of Thardferr...  Thanks for coming and sharing though...  I know that just recently there has been some discussion on some 'lesser' classes that pc's could be ... such as merchant or other types similar sort of to what you have described...  As for races, it really seems to be a case by case basis, as proven by how the DM's have handled it thus far...  There have been dark elf PC's, there have been PC's who are syth... there is now a PC who is a high elf... ...  However a whole band of hobgoblins? I dunno, not yet....

But just because ideas that are on the fringe do not get accepted, please don't count Thard out, ... I'm sure there are other ideas you have that would be accepted...  

~Sule

[Zee]

I do like the idea of stat increases and  being able to buy back flaws. However is there anything that allows players to re-purchase perks? Such as spending X number of DPs to get back used up lucky perk points? Or increase their USP 2 to a USP 4? Just a thought.

[Ranak]

couple quick thoughts...

1.  As PC's gain levels in their class, they already gain benefits.. ie paladins abiliy to lay hands increases, can find a mount, can turn more and more feared creatures, eventually can cast spells, HP go up yada yada...

As for races, this too applies.. orcs AC goes down as they get higher in levels as an example.


2.  There already is a system for increasing ones stats up and down that progresses with age of a character- part of the problem why we don't see this is that were at almost a day for day type of environment, so the change is not percieved that often.

3.  IMO if you want to get rid of a flaw, it should not be tied to levels.  a Character does not need experience to do this, just will, luck, injenuity, money, or possibly friends in the right places.

Ranak has a serious disfigurment, but did his best to mask it with his leather mask, and often wearing a hood, or keeping in darker places.  Sule has outlined some great ways to work them off, but in any event, just discussing withthe DM should be enough, especially if it's something the PC wants to pursue.

4.  As for special development, you can do that already without points.  A human can dual- learn new skills.  You can pick up new NWP's again learning new skills.  Other races can multi, picking up broader ranges in skills.  I suppose a specialist priest who had a devout belief suddenly change their ways at perhaps a sight they feel is unfair, undergo a significant alignment shift and suddenly become a devout follower of the opposite aligning god.  Or one could become undead... *looks at Nux*  or perhaps just dead...*looks at Ranak*.

[Gibreel]

I am not against the basic idea of this, if fact it is interesting I think. However like some have said already, we already gain for moveing up in levels. Perhaps some sort of customization system that took away XP in exchange for points? You could buy up stats (I would say to a limit of 12-14) instead of gaining levels that lost XP reperesenting the time you spent studying to become smarter, or the time you spent lifting weights to get stronger. You could buy back flaws as mentions already, or perhaps buy new perks (with a new limit of 5 perks possible) or buy back used up perks.

[DMGralbor]

I'd like to point out for the record that the ""High Elf PC" is not actually being handled in a PC fashion, but moreso in an NPC fashion.

Now, to address the actual question here:
I am not opposed to this concept, and in fact I definitely encourage something akin to this as I allow players in my F2F groups to actually purchase Stat (ie. STR, DEX, etc.) points with the NWP or WP slots that they may earn as they advance (as I've noted previously on the TC Private).

I do oppose, however, the purchasing of new perks.  Perks are added little benefits that come as a result of character background and previous circumstances prior to the character becoming a playable entity.  To allow someone the opportunity to purchase new perks (or buy back used up perks) would be to defeat the concept of using perks as a background developer.  Also, I can see a horrible abuse of this concept, such as the loathed "Luck" perk.  Each person is born with only a set amount of luck and eventually it will completely dry up, and to offer more luck through "purchasing" it would be wrong, in my opinion of course. The concept of this being "Development Points" is that the character develops themself, rather than gains extra privileges (synonym to perk).

[Condor]

Condor
here i am sorry about the name status being dm..
o am a dm and retired from playing pcs 6 years ago..
and still aint into playing a pc anytime soon(meaning years lol :wink: )
so i guess i,m saying right now past dming theres no other reason i would join ..
but if alot of subjects are open for opinion and the ideas i dont have arent so bad i will offer more as i feel i find ones that might help also
i,m glad to see i,m not the only one with grammer problems ..not to insult why would i ...i sux at grammer and other people on here seem to use the part of there brain called commin sense...
i feel more willing to ad my opnion and ideas here now and hope all dont mind if i continue ...
Condor is just as good as CondorDM..so players dont get confused...

[Condor]

To your idea about stat points..if that worked out would the it have a vice versa effect meaning ..say could i trade stat points ..for nwp or wp..?
thought others would like to know
if i had good scores and needed another skill at the begining of gaming and your stat rule was in effect and i had say 11 cha
and i new i could say get 2 nwp ..saying this for example anyway the extra nwps if they would help bonus...so hense my reason for asking..
stat adjusting ..well to me as a dm would be a no no
unless say it was just for int or wis...biggest part of your stats..used for learning nwp or wp..others like str..i say ..hmmm to allow that cut it down to class types..fighter trade wp for every 2 wp..one extra str point..
for mage and cleric types nwp for wis and int
for thief...30 points from the points they get to spend on there thief skills ..could up say dex...for a pard all rules apply ....

all just my ideas to help out
my opinion to each there own